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Training Question
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
I'm giving a rules training course next week and have been asked to publish some teaser questions. i.e. if the club members are not confident in their answers to these questions then they should come to the training session. What do you all think of these two questions? The intention is that the first is pretty easy, but the second is nigh impossible for anybody but a rules-nerd (hence my mantra of if you don't know then just go round the outside ... and everybody should come to rules training). Did I achieve my intention? Screenshot from 2024-09-26 18-01-44.png353 KB
Created: 24-Sep-26 21:23
Comments
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
International Judge
National Judge
Club Judge
Judge In Training
1
Nicely done.
I like the way you have set both questions on the same diagram.
Both questions work, and are appropriate levels to achieve the intentions you intend.
Perhaps a couple of minor changes could make our a little clearer.
Consider:
Call it 'the' zone, rather than 'her' zone.
In the diagram, bring red in even wider, so red and blue aren't in a distracting collision situation.
Label the direction of mark rounding.
Otherwise it looks good to me!
Created: 24-Sep-26 21:48
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Greg, your answers will change [quite] a bit with the new quad when it becomes first to the zone when one boat is clear ahead
Created: 24-Sep-26 21:53
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
You might also want to ask about Red & Blue. This emphasizes two points. First that rule 18 is about pairs of boats. And second, because neither boat is in the zone, neither boat gets room and it is just rule 10 that governs.
Created: 24-Sep-26 22:13
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Greg, the change between the 2021 RRS answer and the 2025 RRS is so significant that I'd dodge the second question altogether.
Created: 24-Sep-26 22:16
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
John A - it still might be a good question as it gets into how rules can subtlety change and it does make people think and read the rules carefully.
Created: 24-Sep-26 22:33
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
My latest tweaked version is below.
I'm using this question because we just had the situation arise in a recent race, with blue gybing and heading straight for the mark.
I had not yet looked at the 2025- rule changes, so just happenstance that I picked a rule that is changing! That is good news for me, as I wanted to make the point at the training that the rules will change part way through our season. I don't want to go into detail this week, but it will be a good call out for our December session on the subject. The new 18.2 looks a lot better, but still complex. Again, this is ok, as my fundamental message to our club racers is that it is more complex than you think, so just go round-the-outside if there is any doubt!
John C, it would be a good question for training RJ, in understanding the new rules changes.
It's not a good question for beginners. The answer is going to change to the exact opposite in 3 months.
Created: 24-Sep-26 22:58
Mike Fering
Nationality: United States
0
Your comments sent me scurrying to read the new rules for 2025-2028 and, after reading them, I'm confused by your comments about the change to Rule 18 (and by some aspects of how the new rule is written). I assume you've all discussed this, but I've missed it. Can you direct me to that discussion?
Created: 24-Sep-26 23:11
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
Mike,
my understanding of the difference is as follows.
As of 2024, neither blue nor green owe each other mark room at the moment of the diagram. 18 does apply as one of them is in the zone. But neither 18.2(a) nor 18.2(b) applies at that instant. Sometime later, it is likely that Blue will gybe and Green will then have an inside overlap, so 18.2(a) will then apply and Blue must give Green mark room.
Looking at the 2025- rules, the new 18.2(a)(2) applies from the moment of that diagram and Blue must give Green mark room because she has not yet reached the zone.
John, I agree the details are not good for beginners... however the audience is club racers with many years experience who think they know the rule, but that evidence on the water is that they do not. My aim is to show them that the rule is more complex than they think, so the simplest thing is to go round the outside. Below is my summary slide of 18.2: Screenshot from 2024-09-27 09-47-38.png580 KB
Created: 24-Sep-26 23:47
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
1
Mike, First to the zone
No one has yet posted a discussion of the 2025 changes to RRS 18.
2021 RRS 18.2(b) says: ... If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
So currently if a boat clear astern reaches the zone before a boat clear ahead of her, RRS 18.2(b) does not apply, and neither, at that time, is entitled to mark-room. If the boats become overlapped then RRS 18.2(a) will apply and whichever boat is outside will be required to give mark-room.
2025 rule 18.2(a) now says
When the first of two boats reaches the zone,... (2) if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the other boat mark-room.
So the test is not 'reached the zone clear ahead', but 'reached the zone first'.
Created: 24-Sep-27 00:21
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Greg, I wouldn't pitch it up as an alternate quiz question.
I'd present it separately as a 2025 rule change: maybe display the rule text for each version and ask them what's changed, then show the diagram and discuss.
I would suggest that the key teaching point from your diagram is that boats on widely different opposite tack couses are still overlapped, and you're better off not distracting from that with clever new stuff.
Created: 24-Sep-27 00:29
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
John,
I hear you. That diagram is a teaser question in the publicity for the training. It is not the substance of the training itself and is mostly intended to be left hanging, with something interesting for both new and experienced sailors. The training itself focuses on simple interpretations of the key rules and avoids getting bogged down clever stuff. However, I will say that the rules are changing in January and I may use this diagram now to show the subtle change... but only after we have dealt with simple interpretations of the core rules.
Created: 24-Sep-27 00:40
Charlie Macaulay
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
0
Since when does Red owe Green mark room? Or is that supposed to be a trick question?
I haven't looked at the new rules, but if it is as noted above, we are going to have tons of protests with this scenario. With the existing rules, Green owes room to Blue because Blue is clear ahead. And when she gybes she is inside. No change. Now when Blue gybes, she has to give Green room. Message to Blue, gybe early or sail low. Until this soaks in, we'll get lots of protests from Green saying that Blue was outside the zone when Blue gybed.
Created: 24-Sep-27 00:44
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
Charlie, Not a trick question.... other than often sailors don't understand that there is an overlap. Red owes mark room to Green under both current and new rules.
Under the current rules 18.2(b) applies because the boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone. They are overlapped by definition because neither is clear-astern and they are sailing more than 90 degrees from the true wind.
Under the new rules, it is much the same, except the rule will be 18.2(a)(1).
Created: 24-Sep-27 01:39
Charlie Macaulay
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
0
My bad. Marks to starboard, not port. Why throw in that wrinkle. I think it's much more interesting marks to port - as I was assuming above.
Created: 24-Sep-27 02:26
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
International Judge
National Judge
Club Judge
Judge In Training
1
I missed the rounding direction arrow this morning when I first looked on my phone half asleep. It's there on the diagram, but perhaps could be clearer.
Created: 24-Sep-27 02:30
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
Charlie, it's a starboard rounding because all the fixed marks on Sydney Harbour are starboard rounding (no idea why and wish they were not)
Created: 24-Sep-27 02:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Charlie, given that many "cruising" sailors start racing by doing races around govt marks, and they often include starboard roundings (windward and leeward), IMO it's very important to point out the differences ... especially at the windward mark.
Created: 24-Sep-27 11:20
P
Niko Kotsatos
Certifications:
Judge In Training
0
I like the questions. Please make the direction around the mark much more clear. Also, I hope you are planning to teach the new rules, especially vis-a-vis Blue... No one should be learning old rules in October before they change.
Created: 24-Sep-27 15:51
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
Greg re: "Charlie, it's a starboard rounding because all the fixed marks on Sydney Harbour are starboard rounding (no idea why ....)"
Sydney is in the southern hemisphere, so it's obviously due to the Coriolis Effect .. Duh.
;-P
Created: 24-Sep-27 15:58
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
On the San Francisco city front we have a lot of starboard mark roundings depending on course and current.
Created: 24-Sep-27 19:13
Mike Fering
Nationality: United States
0
John Allan, thanks for the explanation of the rule change. After reading your description of the old and the new rules, to me they seem to be different ways of saying the same thing and don't change the way the game is played. The new language is simpler and clearer, but if you arrive in the zone clear ahead or if you're the first boat into the zone, aren't the positions and responsibilities of the boats the same?
I'm also confused by the new 18.2 (c). It seems to come from nowhere. If 18.2 applies to boats that are overlapped and boats that are not overlapped, when would 18.2 not apply?
Clearly, I'll be signing up for the new rules seminar by Dave Perry and/or Dave Dellenbaugh!
Created: 24-Sep-27 20:27
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Mike, No Difference to the game
Consider B and G in Greg's diagrams above, but suppose it was a port rounding.
Under 2021 RRS, B, CASTN of G reaches the zone first: neither boat reaches the zone CAHD of the other, so 2021 RRS 18.2(b) does NOT apply and RRS 18.2(a) does, so when B bears away and comes down to the mark, boats will be overlapped with B inside, so G is required to give B mark-room.
Under 2025 RRS, B although CASTN of G reaches the zone first, that establishes her entitlement to mark-room and it doesn't change with overlap.
2025 RRS 18.2(c) is just corresponding to 2021 RRS 18.2(a) as the catch-all when the usual case of overlapped or not overlapped at the zone covered by 2021 RRS 18.2(b) and 2025 RRS 18.2(a) , does not apply.
Created: 24-Sep-27 22:41
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
IMO, I think there is a game change.
In the current quad, when looking at Green and Blue, it provides MR to which ever boat is inside overlapped. Therefore if Green swings wide and Blue gets her nose inside, Blue is then entitled to MR.
In the 2025 quad, Green is entitled to MR even if overlap is broken and a new overlap is established with Blue inside.
Created: 24-Sep-27 23:32
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
Angelo,
I think there is a slight game change as you say, because the new 18.2(a) is all-encompassing as it triggers as soon as 18 turns on (one of the boats reaches the zone) and then either they are overlapped and 18.2(a)(1) applies, or they are not and 18.2(a)(2) applies. Both cases require mark room to continue to be given even if an overlap is broken or established.
Currently, 18.2(b) doesn't apply between Green and Blue at the moment of the diagram, so 18.1(a) may apply sometime later. With the new rule, I cannot see how 18.2(a) would ever not apply, thus I don't see how 18.2(c) could ever apply?
However, it think the difference is of little consequence and is probably fairer in most cases.
Created: 24-Sep-28 00:24
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Greg, I think it is of notable consequence. The important part is the last sentence of the new 18.2 ...
Under the current quad, MR between Blue and Green is completely dependent upon an overlap existing and who is inside. Whichever boat is inside at any given moment gets MR and it has no persistence through a break in overlap.
Under the new quad, when no overlap exists, the boat that reaches the zone first receives MR which is persistent, independent of the existence of an overlap or which boat is inside or outside. Green gets persistent MR from Blue.
Created: 24-Sep-28 02:11
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Greg Wilkins said at Today 00:24 Wih the new rule, I cannot see how 18.2(a) would ever not apply, thus I don't see how 18.2(c) could ever apply?
Boat tacks from Port to starboard into an overlap in the zone of a mark to be left to starboard?
Created: 24-Sep-28 07:44
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
2
John,
Ah I see, the new 18.2(a) is only comprehensive if 18 is switched on due to 18.1! So if boats get into the zone with 18 switched off due to 18.1, and then tack/gybe in a way that switches 18 on, it is too late for 18.2(a), so 18.2(c) applies. Got it!
Created: 24-Sep-28 08:21
Charlie Macaulay
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
1
I agree with Angelo - this is a game changer. Scenario above, but marks to port. In the current rules, Green owes Blue mark room. In the new quad, Blue owes mark room to Green. This requires a boat on a run to look way back over her shoulder for other boats before gybing. Until this change soaks in for all sailors, we are going to see a lot of protests about who reached the zone first, Blue or Green? The obvious solution is for Blue to sail low and slow into the mark in order to retain rights to mark room. In the interests of safety, that might be a good game change, but it is a game change - especially for sport boats with sprits when racing against displacement symmetrical kite boats.
Created: 24-Sep-28 17:28
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
1
Charlie, It's a game changer, but I don't think it's a big deal. I've never seen a real live protest like that scenario: I think it only happens in rules quizes, and I think that even at present 80 percent of sailors would say that G, reaching the zone first is entitled to mark-room.
Created: 24-Sep-28 22:21
Eric Rimkus
Certifications:
National Race Officer
National Judge
2
I think that this scenario in port roundings, when Green is a 30’ symmetric and Blue is a 24’ asymmetric of similar ratings, occurs more often than we give credit for. In a breeze on situation Blue might be traveling at 15-18 knots on port planning to do a takedown during their gybe and come into the mark for the final gybe around under headsail while green is sailing DDW at 8-10 knots. In reality the 2025 rule just changes the argument from overlap or not at the zone to who got to the zone first and in mixed fleets, and breeze on conditions, it is rare for competitors to recognize those subtleties at the time of the incident.
Created: 24-Sep-29 18:22
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
1
As I understand it the only game change for the Green/Blue pair, and I'm not sure it rises to the level of being a 'game changer', is that the new rules close the hole this situation illustrates. Under the current rules, neither Green or Blue is entitled to the exoneration or obligation that comes with mark room as neither 18.2(a) or (b) covers this situation. That may change as the situation evolves, but we don't know. Under the new rules, Green is entitled to mark room and Blue is required to give mark room. This is true no matter the rounding direction.
B protests G for not keeping clear and not giving mark-room. G protests B for not giving mark-room.
@1+delta B is CAHD of G and will remain CAHD until she bears away to gybe to the mark @3+delta
Between @3-delta and @3+delta, while the diagram appears clear, based on the likely evidence, in the absence of an experienced umpire in a wing boat, that can be brought to a protest hearing, there is doubt whether:
G reached the zone before B
B reached the zone before G before B bore away
B, bearing away, became overlapped on G before G reached the zone.
Under the 2021 rules, no matter what, once B gybes onto starboard tack towards the mark, G is required to give her mark-room, either because:
B, CAHD, and a little to leeward of the position shown in the diagram, actually reached the zone before G, and gained mark-room under RRS 18.2(b) last sentence;
B, having borne away and become overlapped on G before G reached the zone gained mark-room under RRS 18.2(b) first sentence; or
G CASTN, reached the zone before G, RRS 18.2(b) did not apply and RRS 18.2(a) did, so that B gained mark-room when she became overlapped inside G.
B may well not understand the nuance of the last point, but she will probably just understand that coming in hot to a mark on starboard, I have all the rights in the world.
Under the 2025 rules
If B reached the zone first, or if boats were overlapped when the first of them reached the zone, there is no change from the 2021 rules;
Only if G reached the zone first and CASTN of B is there any difference, and G, not B is entitled to mark-room.
The question is whether the boats are overlapped when the first of them (whichever one it is) reaches the zone. In other words, did B, bearing away, obtained an overlap in time (that is, before the first of the boats reached the zone).
There is doubt. 2025 rule 18.2(e) requires that it shall be presumed that she did not.
Boats are not overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone.
There is doubt about which boat reached the zone first.
The last point of certainty is that B was CAHD of G.
Notwithstanding the diagram, which I think we have agreed is subject to doubt, we would normally expect a boat clear ahead to reach the zone before the boat CASTN of her.
I think a protest committee, given the usual state of the evidence, would find as a fact that B, CAHD, reached the zone first and was thus entitled to mark-room, and to right of way without limitation.
Created: 24-Sep-30 02:00
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
I'm not sure how much benefit we get out of quibbling over each other's def of "game change".
For me, the important point is that how the rule is applied has changed ... it is simpler and as has been said ... more aligned to how sailors probably thought it worked anyway.
The rule-change alters how reasonable scenarios shake-out. It's not just a rewording that has no real effect. IMO, it'll be important for judges and sailors to understand the change.
Created: 24-Sep-30 02:54
Eric Rimkus
Certifications:
National Race Officer
National Judge
0
The other nuance of John’s diagram, when assuming a 24’ asymmetrical and 30’ symmetrical, is that at some point immediately before position 3 the zone instantly changes from 72’ (with no boat in the zone) to 90’ which further complicates the point of last known certainty and which could instantly put both boats in the zone simultaneously, therefore the issue of which got there first becomes moot. If I am B, I certainly know how I am going to attempt to shape the facts for a jury.
Created: 24-Sep-30 17:38
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Eric, That's very interesting. Does that not mean that, at the instant before G's bow reaches the zone, G becomes the boat nearer to the mark and her length defines the zone, and at that instant, the zone expands so that B is now within the zone (has reached the zone)?
Created: 24-Sep-30 21:32
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
In the Eric/John scenario with different length boats, would it be reasonable for the PC to find facts that the boats entered the zone simultaneously when the zone expanded when G became closer to the mark than B. In which case 18.2(a)(2) cannot be applied as neither reached the zone first. Which leaves 18.2(c), so G must give B mark room when B establishes and inside overlap.
Without the instantly expanding zone, I'm assuming that facts found must decide which boat reached the zone first and cannot call a tie?
Also if the lengths are reversed, is it possible for the zone to instantly shrink and have the effect of making one or both boats "leave" the zone?
Either way, in my training, I will be stressing 18.2(c), in as much if there is any doubt when on the water that 18.2(a) applies (and which way it applies), then boats should give mark room to inside overlapped boats.
Created: 24-Sep-30 21:56
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
1
I agree with Angelo that the important point is ... how the rule is applied, and there are two ways where the rule is applied:
on the water by racers, and
in a protest hearing by a protest committee.
The significant difference is under the 2021 rules, B CAHD of G can stand on to the layline before gybing confident, no matter what that when she comes back to the mark she will be entitled to mark-room and have right of way without limitations, either because she reached the zone first or overlapped under RRS 18.2(b), or if G reached the zone first B will still obtain mark-room once overlapped inside by RRS 18.2(a).
Under the 2025 rules, as Charlie has observed, B does not have this certainty: if she is not first to the zone or overlappd when G reaches the zone, she will NOT have mark-room when she gybes back.
I'd just like to complete the analysis by considering Greg's original scenario with 2 sports boats (but with a port rounding.
Note that in this diagram, @3 G and B are very close to the zone but neither has yet certainly reached it. I think this better reflects the state of the evidence that is likely to come up in protest hearing.
B protests G for not keeping clear and not giving mark-room. G protests B for not giving mark-room.
From @1 to @3 B is CAHD of G.
@3 neither boat has reached the zone. @3+2delta, both boats have reached the zone. There is doubt whether:
G reached the zone before B
B reached the zone before G before B bore away
B, bearing away, became overlapped on G before G reached the zone.
Under the 2021 rules, no matter what, once B gybes onto starboard tack towards the mark, G is required to give her mark-room, either because:
B, CAHD, and a little to leeward of the position shown in the diagram, actually reached the zone before G, and gained mark-room under RRS 18.2(b) last sentence;
B, having borne away and become overlapped on G before G reached the zone gained mark-room under RRS 18.2(b) first sentence; or
G CASTN, reached the zone before G, RRS 18.2(b) did not apply and RRS 18.2(a) did, so that B gained mark-room when she became overlapped inside G.
B may well not understand the nuance of the last point, but she will probably just understand that coming in hot to a mark on starboard, I have all the rights in the world.
Under the 2025 rules
If B reached the zone first, or if boats were overlapped when the first of them reached the zone, there is no change from the 2021 rules;
Only if G reached the zone first and CASTN of B is there any difference, and G, not B is entitled to mark-room.
The question is whether the boats are overlapped when the first of them (whichever one it is) reaches the zone. In other words, did B, bearing away, obtained an overlap in time (that is, before the first of the boats reached the zone).
There is doubt. 2025 rule 18.2(e) requires that it shall be presumed that she did not.
Boats are not overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone.
There is doubt about which boat reached the zone first.
The last point of certainty is that B was CAHD of G.
Notwithstanding the diagram, which I think we have agreed is subject to doubt, we would normally expect a boat clear ahead to reach the zone before the boat CASTN of her.
I think a protest committee, given the usual state of the evidence, would find as a fact that B, CAHD, reached the zone first and was thus entitled to mark-room, and to right of way without limitation.
Implications for boats' tactics
In the previous scenario where G was a conventional keelboat, sailing downwind with a symmetrical spinnaker, there is nothing she can do or not do to improve her tactical situation. B, however, now aware of the importance under the 2025 rules of being overlapped or first to the zone can improve her chances by either sailing deeper to reach the zone first or gybing earlier to ensure that she is overlapped when the first of the boats reaches the zone. From 2025, B can non longer stand on to the layline then come back hot in certainty that she will have mark room.
Where G is also a sportsboat, sailing a hot angle, now she, likewise can improve her tactical situation by bearing away to reach the zone, not overlapped and before B.
Created: 24-Oct-02 05:53
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
1
Problem with last point of certainty analysis.
As discussed in my analysis above, the best that last point of certainty can do in this scenario is to say:
As B bears away, she does not become overlapped in time to be overlapped when the first of the boats reaches the zone (RRS 18.2(e)).
Neither boat is certain to have reached the zone before the other.
This had never been an issue before, but under the 2025 rules it is.
I think a solution would be to add a further mandatory presumption to RRS 18.2(e)
If boats are not overlapped and there is reasonable doubt which reaches the zone first, it shall be presumed that the boat clear ahead reached the zone first.
I like the way you have set both questions on the same diagram.
Both questions work, and are appropriate levels to achieve the intentions you intend.
Perhaps a couple of minor changes could make our a little clearer.
Consider:
Otherwise it looks good to me!
I'm using this question because we just had the situation arise in a recent race, with blue gybing and heading straight for the mark.
I had not yet looked at the 2025- rule changes, so just happenstance that I picked a rule that is changing! That is good news for me, as I wanted to make the point at the training that the rules will change part way through our season. I don't want to go into detail this week, but it will be a good call out for our December session on the subject. The new 18.2 looks a lot better, but still complex. Again, this is ok, as my fundamental message to our club racers is that it is more complex than you think, so just go round-the-outside if there is any doubt!
thanks all for the feedback
It's not a good question for beginners. The answer is going to change to the exact opposite in 3 months.
my understanding of the difference is as follows.
As of 2024, neither blue nor green owe each other mark room at the moment of the diagram. 18 does apply as one of them is in the zone. But neither 18.2(a) nor 18.2(b) applies at that instant. Sometime later, it is likely that Blue will gybe and Green will then have an inside overlap, so 18.2(a) will then apply and Blue must give Green mark room.
Looking at the 2025- rules, the new 18.2(a)(2) applies from the moment of that diagram and Blue must give Green mark room because she has not yet reached the zone.
John, I agree the details are not good for beginners... however the audience is club racers with many years experience who think they know the rule, but that evidence on the water is that they do not. My aim is to show them that the rule is more complex than they think, so the simplest thing is to go round the outside. Below is my summary slide of 18.2:
No one has yet posted a discussion of the 2025 changes to RRS 18.
2021 RRS 18.2(b) says:
... If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
So currently if a boat clear astern reaches the zone before a boat clear ahead of her, RRS 18.2(b) does not apply, and neither, at that time, is entitled to mark-room. If the boats become overlapped then RRS 18.2(a) will apply and whichever boat is outside will be required to give mark-room.
2025 rule 18.2(a) now says
When the first of two boats reaches the zone,...
(2) if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the other boat mark-room.
So the test is not 'reached the zone clear ahead', but 'reached the zone first'.
I'd present it separately as a 2025 rule change: maybe display the rule text for each version and ask them what's changed, then show the diagram and discuss.
I would suggest that the key teaching point from your diagram is that boats on widely different opposite tack couses are still overlapped, and you're better off not distracting from that with clever new stuff.
I hear you. That diagram is a teaser question in the publicity for the training. It is not the substance of the training itself and is mostly intended to be left hanging, with something interesting for both new and experienced sailors. The training itself focuses on simple interpretations of the key rules and avoids getting bogged down clever stuff. However, I will say that the rules are changing in January and I may use this diagram now to show the subtle change... but only after we have dealt with simple interpretations of the core rules.
I haven't looked at the new rules, but if it is as noted above, we are going to have tons of protests with this scenario. With the existing rules, Green owes room to Blue because Blue is clear ahead. And when she gybes she is inside. No change. Now when Blue gybes, she has to give Green room. Message to Blue, gybe early or sail low. Until this soaks in, we'll get lots of protests from Green saying that Blue was outside the zone when Blue gybed.
Not a trick question.... other than often sailors don't understand that there is an overlap. Red owes mark room to Green under both current and new rules.
Under the current rules 18.2(b) applies because the boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone. They are overlapped by definition because neither is clear-astern and they are sailing more than 90 degrees from the true wind.
Under the new rules, it is much the same, except the rule will be 18.2(a)(1).
Sydney is in the southern hemisphere, so it's obviously due to the Coriolis Effect .. Duh.
;-P
I'm also confused by the new 18.2 (c). It seems to come from nowhere. If 18.2 applies to boats that are overlapped and boats that are not overlapped, when would 18.2 not apply?
Clearly, I'll be signing up for the new rules seminar by Dave Perry and/or Dave Dellenbaugh!
Consider B and G in Greg's diagrams above, but suppose it was a port rounding.
Under 2021 RRS, B, CASTN of G reaches the zone first: neither boat reaches the zone CAHD of the other, so 2021 RRS 18.2(b) does NOT apply and RRS 18.2(a) does, so when B bears away and comes down to the mark, boats will be overlapped with B inside, so G is required to give B mark-room.
Under 2025 RRS, B although CASTN of G reaches the zone first, that establishes her entitlement to mark-room and it doesn't change with overlap.
2025 RRS 18.2(c) is just corresponding to 2021 RRS 18.2(a) as the catch-all when the usual case of overlapped or not overlapped at the zone covered by 2021 RRS 18.2(b) and 2025 RRS 18.2(a) , does not apply.
In the current quad, when looking at Green and Blue, it provides MR to which ever boat is inside overlapped. Therefore if Green swings wide and Blue gets her nose inside, Blue is then entitled to MR.
In the 2025 quad, Green is entitled to MR even if overlap is broken and a new overlap is established with Blue inside.
I think there is a slight game change as you say, because the new 18.2(a) is all-encompassing as it triggers as soon as 18 turns on (one of the boats reaches the zone) and then either they are overlapped and 18.2(a)(1) applies, or they are not and 18.2(a)(2) applies. Both cases require mark room to continue to be given even if an overlap is broken or established.
Currently, 18.2(b) doesn't apply between Green and Blue at the moment of the diagram, so 18.1(a) may apply sometime later. With the new rule, I cannot see how 18.2(a) would ever not apply, thus I don't see how 18.2(c) could ever apply?
However, it think the difference is of little consequence and is probably fairer in most cases.
Under the current quad, MR between Blue and Green is completely dependent upon an overlap existing and who is inside. Whichever boat is inside at any given moment gets MR and it has no persistence through a break in overlap.
Under the new quad, when no overlap exists, the boat that reaches the zone first receives MR which is persistent, independent of the existence of an overlap or which boat is inside or outside. Green gets persistent MR from Blue.
Boat tacks from Port to starboard into an overlap in the zone of a mark to be left to starboard?
Ah I see, the new 18.2(a) is only comprehensive if 18 is switched on due to 18.1! So if boats get into the zone with 18 switched off due to 18.1, and then tack/gybe in a way that switches 18 on, it is too late for 18.2(a), so 18.2(c) applies. Got it!
B protests G for not keeping clear and not giving mark-room.
G protests B for not giving mark-room.
@1+delta B is CAHD of G and will remain CAHD until she bears away to gybe to the mark @3+delta
Between @3-delta and @3+delta, while the diagram appears clear, based on the likely evidence, in the absence of an experienced umpire in a wing boat, that can be brought to a protest hearing, there is doubt whether:
B may well not understand the nuance of the last point, but she will probably just understand that coming in hot to a mark on starboard, I have all the rights in the world.
Under the 2025 rules
The question is whether the boats are overlapped when the first of them (whichever one it is) reaches the zone. In other words, did B, bearing away, obtained an overlap in time (that is, before the first of the boats reached the zone).
There is doubt. 2025 rule 18.2(e) requires that it shall be presumed that she did not.
Boats are not overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone.
There is doubt about which boat reached the zone first.
The last point of certainty is that B was CAHD of G.
Notwithstanding the diagram, which I think we have agreed is subject to doubt, we would normally expect a boat clear ahead to reach the zone before the boat CASTN of her.
I think a protest committee, given the usual state of the evidence, would find as a fact that B, CAHD, reached the zone first and was thus entitled to mark-room, and to right of way without limitation.
For me, the important point is that how the rule is applied has changed ... it is simpler and as has been said ... more aligned to how sailors probably thought it worked anyway.
The rule-change alters how reasonable scenarios shake-out. It's not just a rewording that has no real effect. IMO, it'll be important for judges and sailors to understand the change.
If I am B, I certainly know how I am going to attempt to shape the facts for a jury.
Without the instantly expanding zone, I'm assuming that facts found must decide which boat reached the zone first and cannot call a tie?
Also if the lengths are reversed, is it possible for the zone to instantly shrink and have the effect of making one or both boats "leave" the zone?
Either way, in my training, I will be stressing 18.2(c), in as much if there is any doubt when on the water that 18.2(a) applies (and which way it applies), then boats should give mark room to inside overlapped boats.
The significant difference is under the 2021 rules, B CAHD of G can stand on to the layline before gybing confident, no matter what that when she comes back to the mark she will be entitled to mark-room and have right of way without limitations, either because she reached the zone first or overlapped under RRS 18.2(b), or if G reached the zone first B will still obtain mark-room once overlapped inside by RRS 18.2(a).
Under the 2025 rules, as Charlie has observed, B does not have this certainty: if she is not first to the zone or overlappd when G reaches the zone, she will NOT have mark-room when she gybes back.
I'd just like to complete the analysis by considering Greg's original scenario with 2 sports boats (but with a port rounding.
Note that in this diagram, @3 G and B are very close to the zone but neither has yet certainly reached it. I think this better reflects the state of the evidence that is likely to come up in protest hearing.
B protests G for not keeping clear and not giving mark-room.
G protests B for not giving mark-room.
From @1 to @3 B is CAHD of G.
@3 neither boat has reached the zone. @3+2delta, both boats have reached the zone. There is doubt whether:
B may well not understand the nuance of the last point, but she will probably just understand that coming in hot to a mark on starboard, I have all the rights in the world.
Under the 2025 rules
The question is whether the boats are overlapped when the first of them (whichever one it is) reaches the zone. In other words, did B, bearing away, obtained an overlap in time (that is, before the first of the boats reached the zone).
There is doubt. 2025 rule 18.2(e) requires that it shall be presumed that she did not.
Boats are not overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone.
There is doubt about which boat reached the zone first.
The last point of certainty is that B was CAHD of G.
Notwithstanding the diagram, which I think we have agreed is subject to doubt, we would normally expect a boat clear ahead to reach the zone before the boat CASTN of her.
I think a protest committee, given the usual state of the evidence, would find as a fact that B, CAHD, reached the zone first and was thus entitled to mark-room, and to right of way without limitation.
Implications for boats' tactics
In the previous scenario where G was a conventional keelboat, sailing downwind with a symmetrical spinnaker, there is nothing she can do or not do to improve her tactical situation. B, however, now aware of the importance under the 2025 rules of being overlapped or first to the zone can improve her chances by either sailing deeper to reach the zone first or gybing earlier to ensure that she is overlapped when the first of the boats reaches the zone. From 2025, B can non longer stand on to the layline then come back hot in certainty that she will have mark room.
Where G is also a sportsboat, sailing a hot angle, now she, likewise can improve her tactical situation by bearing away to reach the zone, not overlapped and before B.
As discussed in my analysis above, the best that last point of certainty can do in this scenario is to say:
This had never been an issue before, but under the 2025 rules it is.
I think a solution would be to add a further mandatory presumption to RRS 18.2(e)
If boats are not overlapped and there is reasonable doubt which reaches the zone first, it shall be presumed that the boat clear ahead reached the zone first.