Nicely done.

I like the way you have set both questions on the same diagram. 

Both questions work, and are appropriate levels to achieve the intentions you intend. 

Perhaps a couple of minor changes could make our a little clearer. 

Consider:

Otherwise it looks good to me! 

Greg, your answers will change a bit with the new quad when it becomes first to the zone when one boat is clear ahead

You might also want to ask about Red & Blue.  This emphasizes two points.  First that rule 18 is about pairs of boats.  And second, because neither boat is in the zone, neither boat gets room and it is just rule 10 that governs.

Greg, the change between the 2021 RRS answer and the 2025 RRS is so significant that I'd dodge the second question altogether.

John A - it still might be a good question as it gets into how rules can subtlety change and it does make people think and read the rules carefully. 

My latest tweaked version is below.

I'm using this question because we just had the situation arise in a recent race, with blue gybing and heading straight for the mark.

I had not yet looked at the 2025- rule changes, so just happenstance that I picked a rule that is changing! That is good news for me, as I wanted to make the point at the training that the rules will change part way through our season.  I don't want to go into detail this week, but it will be a good call out for our December session on the subject.  The new 18.2 looks a lot better, but still complex.   Again, this is ok, as my fundamental message to our club racers is that it is more complex than you think, so just go round-the-outside if there is any doubt!  

thanks all for the feedback
 

John C, it would be a good question for training RJ, in understanding the new rules changes.

It's  not a good question for beginners.  The answer is going to change to the exact opposite in 3 months.

Your comments sent me scurrying to read the new rules for 2025-2028 and, after reading them, I'm confused by your comments about the change to Rule 18 (and by some aspects of how the new rule is written). I assume you've all discussed this, but I've missed it. Can you direct me to that discussion?

Mike,

my understanding of the difference is as follows.   

As of 2024, neither blue nor green owe each other mark room at the moment of the diagram.   18 does apply as one of them is in the zone.  But neither 18.2(a) nor 18.2(b) applies at that instant.   Sometime later, it is likely that Blue will gybe and Green will then have an inside overlap, so 18.2(a) will then apply and Blue must give Green mark room.

Looking at the 2025- rules, the new 18.2(a)(2) applies from the moment of that diagram and Blue must give Green mark room because she has not yet reached the zone.


John, I agree the details are not good for beginners... however the audience is club racers with many years experience who think they know the rule, but that evidence on the water is that they do not.   My aim is to show them that the rule is more complex than they think, so the simplest thing is to go round the outside.  Below is my summary slide of 18.2:

Mike, First to the zone

No one has yet posted a discussion of the 2025 changes to RRS 18.

2021 RRS 18.2(b) says:
... If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.

So currently if a boat clear astern reaches the zone before a boat clear ahead of her, RRS 18.2(b) does not apply, and neither, at that time, is entitled to mark-room.   If the boats become overlapped then RRS 18.2(a) will apply and whichever boat is outside will be required to give mark-room.

2025 rule 18.2(a) now says

When the first of two boats reaches the zone,...
(2) if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the other boat mark-room.

So the test is not 'reached the zone clear ahead', but 'reached the zone first'.

Greg, I wouldn't pitch it up as an alternate quiz question.

I'd present it separately as a 2025 rule change:  maybe display the rule text for each version and ask them what's changed, then show the diagram and discuss.

I would suggest that the key teaching point from your diagram is that boats on widely different opposite tack couses are still overlapped, and you're better off not distracting from that with clever new stuff.

John,

I hear you.   That diagram is a teaser question in the publicity for the training.  It is not the substance of the training itself and is mostly intended to be left hanging, with something interesting for both new and experienced sailors.  The training itself focuses on simple interpretations of the key rules and avoids getting bogged down clever stuff.  However, I will say that the rules are changing in January and I may use this diagram now to show the subtle change... but only after we have dealt with simple interpretations of the core rules.  

Since when does Red owe Green mark room?  Or is that supposed to be a trick question?

I haven't looked at the new rules, but if it is as noted above, we are going to have tons of protests with this scenario.  With the existing rules, Green owes room to Blue because Blue is clear ahead.  And when she gybes she is inside.  No change.  Now when Blue gybes, she has to give Green room.  Message to Blue, gybe early or sail low.  Until this soaks in, we'll get lots of protests from Green saying that Blue was outside the zone when Blue gybed. 

Charlie,
Not a trick question.... other than often sailors don't understand that there is an overlap.  Red owes mark room to Green under both current and new rules.

Under the current rules 18.2(b) applies because the boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone.  They are overlapped by definition because neither is clear-astern and they are sailing more than 90 degrees from the true wind.

Under the new rules, it is much the same, except the rule will be 18.2(a)(1).

My bad.  Marks to starboard, not port.  Why throw in that wrinkle.  I think it's much more interesting marks to port - as I was assuming above.

I missed the rounding direction arrow this morning when I first looked on my phone half asleep.  It's there on the diagram, but perhaps could be clearer.

Charlie, it's a starboard rounding because all the fixed marks on Sydney Harbour are starboard rounding (no idea why and wish they were not)