Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Must Green respond tacking ?

Catalan Benaros
Hi friends, what do you think about this ?
Cheers !!
Cata
463031015_2358774434456150_7888059327015134011_n.jpg 131 KB
Created: 24-Oct-19 09:51

Comments

Jan Winkler
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
6

Penalty blue, RRS20.1, last paragraph.
Green shell respond and may protest.
If green doesn't respond also penalty Green, RRS20.2(b)

Created: 24-Oct-19 10:17
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
1
Clear, concise, accurate. Well done. Now wait for all the ‘yes, buts’! 
Created: 24-Oct-19 12:04
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
-3
Jan, 
RRS20 does not apply.  See preamble to Section C
Created: 24-Oct-19 12:32
Robin Gray
Nationality: United Kingdom
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4
Sorry - Preamble to C is re a Start Mark - this mark has a blue flag and therefore a finish mark
Created: 24-Oct-19 12:40
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Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
-2
It depends. If these boats are approaching to start rules of Part 2 Section C do not apply so RRS 20 is not in play and Green does not have to tack. If they are finishing it’s a different story. RRS 20 is in play Green must tack And can protest Blue as Jan said. 
Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to start until they have passed them.
Created: 24-Oct-19 12:41
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Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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1
Well spotted Robin
Created: 24-Oct-19 12:42
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John Allan
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0
Nick, you told us so.
Created: 24-Oct-19 13:24
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
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0
🤦🏼‍♂️
Created: 24-Oct-19 13:55
Jan Winkler
Certifications:
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0
On the above drawing there is a blue fag at the RC boat so this is a finishing line.

But if you set the same situation on the starting line there is a twist you need to cosider; and its hidden in plain sight; in second part of the Preambule…

So you need to establish one more fact in order to reach a conclusion when we are talking about starting line.
Depending on that “missing” fact there can be  two possible outcomes; Section C rules doesn’t apply or Section C rules apply…
;)


Created: 24-Oct-19 16:38
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Greg Wilkins
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To answer the actual question asked... 

No green does not need to respond by tacking.

But Green must respond either by tacking or by responding "you tack"  and allowing blue to tack and keeping clear. This is regardless of the validity of the original hail for room to tack. If green thinks the hall was invalid, she can protest (and in this case is likely to be upheld), but she must allow blue to tack one way or the other.
Created: 24-Oct-19 19:41
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John Allan
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Greg,  Practically I disagree that G need not tack.

Given the closeness of the boats, there's no way short of teleportation that G, responding 'you tack' and B tacking as soon as possible, that G can give B room to tack an keep clear.

and BTW, if G does tack she has no obligation whatsoeve to 'allow B to tack':  her obligation if she does not immediately hail 'you tack' is no more than to tack as soon as possible:  whether this gives B room to tack is irrelevamt/
Created: 24-Oct-19 20:40
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Greg Wilkins
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John. Yeah I agree that practically Green had no choice but to tack given the close overlap.

However, I would also say that if we are taking practically rather than technically, then the intent of a tack by green is to give room to blue to tack.
Created: 24-Oct-19 21:24
Warren Collier
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Assuming this is a finish mark, Green is technically obligated to respond with either You Tack or by tacking by 20.2(b) and should also respond with Protest & flag against Blue for breaking 20.1 last paragraph.
Blue is RoW leeward boat 11, Green is keep clear boat and Blue has Mark Room on Green 18.2(b) since they are overlapped on the same tack as they enter the zone of the finish mark. Green could provide Mark Room by choosing either to luff up or by tacking. Thus, Blue could protest Green for not providing mark room unless 18.2(f) applied. 
Created: 24-Oct-19 21:52
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John Allan
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Greg, Why are we talking about intent in a When Boats Meet rule?
Created: 24-Oct-19 23:22
Julian Summers
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Trying to get this straight in my head...

  1. If Blue had hailed for mark room, Green would have to provide it, either by tacking or by luffing up (as Warren has said).
  2. Blue is not entitled to hail for room to tack at the obstruction (the finish boat) since, although she meets the conditions of rules 20.1(a) and 20.1(b), the text following 20.1(b) says she "...shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark and a boat that is fetching it would be required to change course as a result of the hail.".
  3. When Blue does so, rule 20.2(e) switches off her rights to mark room under 18.2 until she has tacked and avoided Green.
  4. Green's options for responding are defined in rule 20.2.  Given the proxility of the boats, she probably has to tack as soon as possible.
  5. Green may then protest Blue for her improper hail.

In effect, Blue chose the wrong rule to hail under.

Is that about right?

Created: 24-Oct-20 02:58
Clark Chapin
Nationality: United States
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Let's add some complications and slightly re-state the problem: (apologies for flipping the boat colors)
Blue and Green are approaching the Race Committee Boat at the finish line. 
Green cannot fetch the Committee Boat and hails for room to tack (1).
Blue responds “No room!” (2)
Green puts her helm down anyway and collides with Blue as she reaches head-to-wind (3).  There is no damage or injury.
Both boats protest: Green under rules 11 and 20 and Blue under rules 20.2(b) and 16.1.
(I admit that this is a trick question because there are other facts that the protest committee would have to find).

Rule 20 at the Finish.PNG 20 KB
Created: 24-Oct-20 03:00
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Greg Wilkins
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John, 

I'm just making the same technical vs practical distinction that you introduced. 

Technically G must respond by either tacking or responding "you tack" and giving B room to tack. You pointed out that practically G only has the option to tack. 

You then pointed out that technically once G tacks, she is not obligated to give B room to tack, to which I've responded that practically the intention of the rule is to allow B to tack.

My point that G must let B tack one way or another is to stress the practical intent of the rule to let B get out of trouble.... even if G doesn't agree that B is in trouble. In this case B is breaking the rule because she wants to tack for tactical reasons. But if there was a swimmer in the water or a marine mammal, or a log, which was forcing B to tack, then the situation would look the same to G. Thus G should first let B tack and then protest if she'd doesn't think 20.1 applied. 

This applies to Clarks scenario. "No room" is not a valid response to a hail for room to tack. So the boat hailing that break 20 by doing so. However, the boat hailing for room to tack also breaks 20 as there was no obstruction. She also breaks 14 as she did not avoid contact when it was reasonable for her to do so. Actually the "no room" hailing boat also broke 14 as it was reasonable for her to avoid contact, given that she was warned about the tack.



Created: 24-Oct-20 04:26
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John Allan
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 Julian Summers said Created: Today 02:58 

  1. If Blue had hailed for mark room, Green would have to provide it, either by tacking or by luffing up (as Warren has said).
  2. Blue is not entitled to hail for room to tack at the obstruction (the finish boat) since, although she meets the conditions of rules 20.1(a) and 20.1(b), the text following 20.1(b) says she "...shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark and a boat that is fetching it would be required to change course as a result of the hail.".
  3. When Blue does so, rule 20.2(e) switches off her rights to mark room under 18.2 until she has tacked and avoided Green.
  4. Green's options for responding are defined in rule 20.2.  Given the proxility of the boats, she probably has to tack as soon as possible.
  5. Green may then protest Blue for her improper hail.

In effect, Blue chose the wrong rule to hail under.

Is that about right?

Yup, except that a hail about mark-room has no effect or meaning under the rules.  If the conditions of  RRS 18  apply a boat is required to give, and a boat is entitled to be given mark-room.  Hails make no difference. 

By hailing 'room to tack' Blue switched off her entitlement to mark-room.

I wouldn't say Blue chose the wrong hail:  she knew what she wanted to do: it's just that the RRS didn't entitle her to do it, and she broke  RRS 20.1 by doing so.
Created: 24-Oct-20 04:26
P
Greg Wilkins
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Julian, 

Mark room does not include room to tack in this situation as B is not to windward G (see current definition of mark room).

So no hail or rule allows B to tack without breaking a rule. B can sail high and luff to try to sail to the mark, but if she passes head to wind, she must keep clear of G until close hauled and then initially give her room to keep clear. 

Created: 24-Oct-20 04:33
Julian Summers
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  • Club Race Officer
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Thanks for the clarification Greg Wilkins. That's another twist I hadn't thought of!

So it seems that Blue's only (legal) options are to luff and hope her weigh carries her through the line, or to manoeuver behind Green, either by slowing down or gybing around behind her.
Created: 24-Oct-20 05:35
P
John Allan
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 Clark Chapin said  Created: Today 03:00 

Let's add some complications and slightly re-state the problem: (apologies for flipping the boat colors)
Blue and Green are approaching the Race Committee Boat at the finish line. 
Green cannot fetch the Committee Boat and hails for room to tack (1).
Blue responds “No room!” (2)

Blue breaks RRS 20.2(c) by not immediately responding 'you tack' or tacking as soon as possible.

Whether or not Green was fetching is largely irrelevant:  the test in RRS 20.1 is whether Blue is fetching.  While you would usually expect that a boat, to windward of a leeward boat that is fetching the mark, will also be fetching the mark, this is not necessarily the case:  suppose that Green was an Etchells, and Blue was a Beneteau Oceanis.  A protest committee would need to find a fact about whether or not Blue was fetching the mark.

By the diagram, Blue was not fetching the mark, so, on that basis, RRS 20 applies so as to:
  • entitle Green to hail for room to tack, and 
  • require Blue to respond to the hail in accordance with RRS 20.2(c).

Green puts her helm down anyway and collides with Blue as she reaches head-to-wind (3).

RRS 20.2(a) requires
(a) After a boat hails, she shall give a hailed boat time to respond.

A protest committee would need to find how long after the hail it was when Green put her helm down, and how severe her turn was, but given that by the diagram it appears that Green did not give Blue room to keep clear, Green did not give Blue time to respond.

There is no damage or injury.
Both boats protest: Green under rules 11 and 20 and Blue under rules 20.2(b) and 16.1.
(I admit that this is a trick question because there are other facts that the protest committee would have to find).

Blue did not respond to Green's hail as required by RRS 20.2(c).  Blue broke RRS 20.2(c).

Green did not give Blue time to respond as required by RRS 20.2(a).  Green broke RRS 20.2(a).

Contact occurred 'as Green reaches head to wind'.  Therefore Green was on the tack she was on before she reached head to wind (Definition:  Leeward and Windward), both boats are on same tack, Blue, to windward does not keep clear.  Blue breaks RRS 11.

Alternatively, had Green been past head to wind, Green, while tacking, would have not kept clear of Blue and Green would have broken RRS 13.

If Green did not break RRS 13, then it appears that Green, changing course did not give Blue room to keep clear and broke RRS 16.1.

Green hailed 'room to tack' before she reached the zone, RRS 18 does not apply

At point 3, if Green breaks RRS 16.1 Blue is exonerated for breaking RRS 11 by RRS 43.1(b).

If Green breaks RRS 16.1, it was not reasonably possible for Blue to avoid contact, so Blue does not break RRS 14.

Green could always have avoided contact, so Green breaks RRS 14, but because there is no damage or injury, is exonerated by RRS 43.1(c).

Bottom line:  Rules which boats broke and for which they were not exonerated:
  • Blue broke RRS 20.2(c),
  • Green broke RRS 20.2(a).
  • Green broke RRS 16.1

Decision:  disqualify both boats.
Created: 24-Oct-20 05:45
Greg Dargavel
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Question on Clark's scenario. Is the RC boat really an obstruction in this scenario? If Green turned down a few degrees, she could have passed astern of the RC boat easily.
Created: 24-Oct-20 12:10
Clark Chapin
Nationality: United States
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Greg: But the RC boat meets the Definition Obstruction
Created: 24-Oct-20 17:32
Warren Collier
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Clark/ Greg - correct - it is an obstruction by the definition, but it is also a mark by definition and 19.1(a) says 19 doesn't apply Unless it is a continuing obstruction.
Created: 24-Oct-20 18:08
Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
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Well Greg - Think you are correct - the RC finishing vessel is not an obstruction for G (do not have to make a substantial course change)  but it is for B (do have to make a substantial course change).
Let´s asume that G hail, B tack and the G tack - no contact.
B protests.
Any rule(s) broken ?
Created: 24-Oct-20 18:21
Greg Dargavel
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Hans, that is my question to the group mind - "Think you are correct - the RC finishing vessel is not an obstruction for G (do not have to make a substantial course change)". To me the RC boat is definitely an obstruction by definition. Does the group mind think that Green's course change to pass astern of RC is substantial ( and therefore 20.1 applies) or the change in course required to pass astern is not substantial (and 20.1 does apply because of 20.1 a)  ).  Yes, breeze and sea state matter, however if neither of these is a big deal, what kind of test would people use to determine/operationally define "substantial"?
Created: 24-Oct-20 19:16
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John Allan
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Greg,  Interesting geometry.  I think that @1, when Green does hail 'room to tack', it's well arguable that a bear away to pass astern of the committee vessel is not substantial, but had she delayed her hail somewhat, say right up to @3.5, or @4, it would have been.

I think our consideration of the matter should be at least flavoured by the way we would apply  Definition Obstruction, and the concept of 'may choose to pass ...  on either side' in  RRS 19.2(a).
Created: 24-Oct-20 21:52
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