Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Must Green respond tacking ? Starting line case

Catalan Benaros
Created: 24-Oct-19 23:52

Comments

Doc Sullivan
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
1
This is covered in the TR call book. TR Call K1. Also 20.1 states In addition, she shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark and a boat that is fetching it would be required to change course as a result of the hail.

So if leeward is not entitled to room to tack and is DSQ for asking. Windward boat must respond and if they do not they break 20.1
Created: 24-Oct-20 00:05
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Doc, No, this is a starting mark.  TR Calls K1 and K2 apply at a finishing mark.
Created: 24-Oct-20 01:08
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
5
It think someone else answered this correctly in the other entry when they thought it was a starting mark.  In this case it is so the preamble to Section C says that "Section C rules" (which includes all of rule 20) "do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time the boats are approaching them to start until they have passed them".    If this is their approach to start then all of rule 20 does not apply including the end of 20.1 and 20.2(b).  

If they are not approaching to start (lets say this is 3 minutes before the start) then it becomes more interesting.  Rule 20 does apply.  It is a mark (see the def'n of mark) and Green is fetching it.  20.1 says that the Blue should not hail, 20.2(b) says that Green has to respond to the illegal hail.    
Created: 24-Oct-20 01:28
Silvio Zuccotti
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
4
10 sec to start...In this scenario Section C rules do not apply.  3-4 minutes to go C rules do apply.
Created: 24-Oct-20 10:11
Catalan Benaros
0
Here is my point.....in this case seccion C is off.
So Why must Windward boat respond ?

11.jpg 178 KB
Created: 24-Oct-21 00:22
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Andrew, IMO, In the case that this is 3 min prior to the start, the RC is not yet a mark of the leg the boats are sailing ....  as boats are not yet required to pass it on the same side (it would be perfectly fine for Green to pass the RC to starboard and Blue to pass it to port. Boats are only required to pass a starting mark on the same, required side when they are approaching them from the pre start side of the starting-line to start. 
Created: 24-Oct-21 14:14
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
My opinion is that R 20 is a safety rule to prevent collisions and groundings.

I think we all agree that the hail for room to tack by leeward is improper - but I suggest that it is appropriate for windward to respect the 'invalid' hail and respond under R 20, and then protest Leeward. The alternative of windward ignoring the hail is the possibility that leeward collides with the committee boat.

John
Created: 24-Oct-21 19:00
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Angelo,  " the RC is not yet a mark of the leg the boats are sailing ....  as boats are not yet required to pass it on the same side "  Why is this relevant to the application of RRS 20?
Created: 24-Oct-21 21:01
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
John Ball " My opinion is that R 20 is a safety rule to prevent collisions and groundings. "

I don't agree that characterising RRS 20 as a 'safety  rule' is helpful, and whether or not it is a 'safety rule' should have no effect on how it is applied:  all rules are equal.

When RRS 20 applies, it is almost always possible for the hailing boat to avoid the obstruction either by gybing or tacking behind the hailed boat, where the hailing boat first luffs and slows, to herself gain room to tack.  The diagram in this scenario is a good example:  Blue can readily bear away slightly and pass the committee vessel in safety.

I think RRS 20 is best conceived of as a rule that facilitates boats manoeuvering at an obstruction in a tactically orderly way, so that no boat gains or loses too much of an advantage.
Created: 24-Oct-21 21:09
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John ... because of the last sentence of RRS 20.1 and def: fetching. 

Fetching
A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

A boat can't be fetching a mark if it does not yet have a required side.   Until a boat is approaching the line to start, the RC boat does not have a required side. 
Created: 24-Oct-21 21:10
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
2
Angelo Thanks, I now agree.

So in the 3 minutes to go case, RRS 20 applies, Green must respond (and hasn't) and Blue breaks no rule.
Created: 24-Oct-21 22:12
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
2
Angelo, I agree.  I had focused on the definition of mark and the committee is a mark even three minutes before the start since the definition includes "a race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which the starting .. line extends"  but missed the definition of fetch "pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side".  This would mean that the exception at the end of of 20.1 (it is a mark but according the definition green is not fetching it) does not apply and the hail is valid.  
Created: 24-Oct-22 01:07
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
2
Andrew and John .. and this "no required side" element removes the RC-boat from RRS 19.1(a)'s exception .. so 3 min before the start both RRS 19 and RRS 20 apply. 
Created: 24-Oct-22 11:18
Catalan Benaros
1
"so 3 min before the start both RRS 19 and RRS 20 apply."

In this case, green breaks rule 19.2(b)


CASO.jpg 110 KB
Created: 24-Oct-23 16:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
I wonder if we can consider Catalan's last drawing?

We started with 2 boats on port ... running out of line at the RC end with 3 min's before the start.  Given those circumstances, it seems to me that neither boat is approaching the line to start, which is the Part C preamble conditional test as well as the test which imparts a required side to the RC. 

Now Catalan gives us a different scenario, with  a P flag up and boats on startboard with the entire line in front to them.  I don't think our conclusions are as obvious. 

Assuming we have a 5 min sequence, this image can be anywhere from 4:00 min to 1:01 min before the start.   Are we still comfortable with the same conclusions that RRS 19 and 20 apply at 4 min or 3 min?   How about 1:01 min?
Created: 24-Oct-25 11:49
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
For clarity of rule application sake, should Part C's preamble be changed to???

2021 Section C Preamble ..
Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to start [from the preparatory signal and until boats have approached the mark to start and then left it astern.]


PS: 2025 Section C Preamble below:
Section C rules do not apply between boats when the mark or
obstruction referred to in those rules is a starting mark surrounded
by navigable water or its anchor line, from the time the boats are
approaching it to start until they have left it astern.

So applying that same approach to the new preamble ... 

Section C rules do not apply between boats when the mark or obstruction referred to in those rules is a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or its anchor line, from the time boats are approaching them to start [from their preparatory signal and until boats have approached the mark to start and then left it astern.]
Created: 24-Oct-26 12:48
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
Angelo.
Submission 013-23 (Rule 18 Definition Mark Room, Preamble to Section C, Rule 18) contained similar wording, but was only partially adopted.

013-23-Rule-18-Def-Mark-Room-Preamble-Part-C.pdf

Created: 24-Oct-26 15:12
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Thanks Mark for that reference. This discussion has brought to the forefront that the application of the rules in this period of time can depend upon one boat's "interpretation of intent" (my term) of another boat's intention to approach the line to start ... or not. 

A determinate start time of this time-span .. either the prep-signal or the "last minute" would make it clear. 

This could also be clarified in a Case, where it could be stated that a boat is assumed to be approaching the line to start after her prep signal or in the last minute. 
Created: 24-Oct-26 16:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark ... looking closely at the Submitted change to C's Preamble, it contained a "flaw" which made it inconsistent with how we've applied the rules by stating ....

 "... until they have started and left them astern".   

Using started creates a rules hole for those who continue sailing the course with a starting error. 

FWIW, I think my language is more consistent with how we want the rule applied, such that a boat that approaches the line to start, leaves the mark astern but does not start correctly but continues sailing, still meets the criteria. 

Maybe my wording above is different enough to try another bite at the apple. 
Created: 24-Oct-27 12:48
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