Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

The new Part 5

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Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
OK .. I've been spending time in the new Part 5.  Is there anyone here that feels this is an improvement or makes things easier to understand or navigate?

Seriously, I'd love to hear some positive POV's.

Maybe it's just me and I'm just being incalcitrant or looking at it the wrong way .. but it's giving me "shpilkes in my connectiazoid" (for the SNL/Mike Myers/'Coffee Talk' fans out there).
Created: 25-Jan-19 16:19

Comments

Jim Dinger
Nationality: Australia
0
I am unable to view your Part 5.  Did you download (submit) it to the web page?
Created: 25-Jan-19 18:40
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Angelo Guarino
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  • Regional Judge
3
Jim, I'm talking about the complete rewrite of Part 5 in the 2025-2028 RRS. - Ang
Created: 25-Jan-19 19:08
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Umpire
6
Ang,  

Before I answer your question, I need to say that I was in no way involved with that massive rewrite other than to review it before publication.  Overall, I was not in favor of a number of organizational changes.  (The US RRC, of which I am a member, also proposed some small wording changes but was not involved in the reorganization.)  Having said that, I can easily find several improvements: 

  1. There used to be five separate rules about who could protest and under what conditions each could do so, and three of them (regarding committees protesting) said more or less the same thing.  There is now one simple rule 60.1: A boat or a committee may protest a boat.  Conditions for when such protest are valid are in two rules, one for boats (60.4(a)) and one for committees (60.4(b)).
  2.  We really don't want a system where officials other than protest committees decide who can protest or file for redress, but both old rules 60.1 about boats protesting and 62.1 about requesting redress invited race officials, such as race committee chairs or even protest secretaries, to turn away protests and requests for redress when the official deemed the document not to live up to the standards in rule 60.1 or 62.1.  Now the corresponding rules, 60.1 and 61.1, simply state the right to protest or request redress.  Decisions about whether protests or requests for redress meet the criteria at left to the validity part of the protest hearing, where they belong.   
  3. Something we've known to be wrong for at lease 30 years has been fixed: There used to be a rule (62.1) listing what kinds of claim a request for redress must be based on (e.g., an improper action or inaction of a race committee), but there's never been a rule listing the basis for a protest committee to decide a request for redress.  We've always acted as if those were the same, but why would that be?  Technically, a boat could have requested redress based on, say, an action by the race committee, and the protest committee could have decided that although the RC did nothing improper, the situation "wasn't fair" and they could have granted the redress anyway.  New Part 5 fixes that problem -- a boat can file for redress for any old reason, but redress will only be granted if one of the conditions has been met.  (BTW, the conditions are the same as in previous rulebooks.)
  4. The pre-2025 rule on protest contents (rule 61.2) required the protest to have five separate elements, but then negated three of those requirements by stating that certain elements could be changed at any time up to the beginning of the hearing, or even during the hearing.  If you think about it, that's worse than not requiring that content in the first place, because the original protest content was misleading.  Also, saying that the identity of the protestee could be changed after the protest is filed is clearly wrong -- if you don't know whom you are protesting, surely you should not be allowed to fill in an arbitrary protestee.  New rule 60.3 corrects these problems by only requiring the protest to identify the protestor and protestee, and the incident.

There are a number of things I don't like about new Part 5.  Principal among these are:

  1. The reorganization itself.  The old organization was in time order: First, rules about what happens on the water, then rules about what happens after boats come ashore, then a rule about the hearing, then a rule about decisions, and finally, rules about misconduct (though I admit that's not in tie order) and appeals.  I think time order is intuitive for the naive reader, whereas the new order is logical: First, rules about protests, then rules about redress, etc.  Not only is the new order less intuitive, but the mere fact that it's different means that literally thousands of sailors will have to relearn where the rules are and how they fit together.  To my mind, that downside is not offset by the (arguably) more logical ordering.
  2. The process.  The whole Part 5 rewrite was submitted to the World Sailing Racing Rules Committee in a single submission document with a "Reason" that gives a general rationale -- Part 5 had become more complicated over time -- and the history of the revision process.   There was no justification for individual changes.  As a result, the RRC was unable to separate the wheat from the chaff, so we got both.
Created: 25-Jan-19 23:50
Clark Chapin
Nationality: United States
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  • Club Race Officer
0
Rob: Thanks for your clarification.
For 2024, the discussion question that I posed to other judges at several events was: "Can an action or omission by a race committee be 'improper' if it breaks no rule?"
In most cases, the initial reaction was "no", but it was easy to construct or find a counterexample, especially in the RYA Appeals.
Created: 25-Jan-20 02:42
Doc Sullivan
Certifications:
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1
Well put Rob. I think that change is always hard but we will get through it
Doc
Created: 25-Jan-20 02:43
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
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  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
0
I should start with similar disclaimers to Rob's.  Neither I, nor any of the committees that I am on at Sail Canada submitted any of the changes.  I have found dealing with the massive amount of change to be a huge workload.  Many appeals have to be changed just because the rules numbers and titles have changed (with no substantive change).  Judges courses have to be changed etc.

Putting all of that aside, I think it is actually very difficult for many of us to see the proposed advantage and whether it has achieved it.  I believe that the goal was to make it simpler and more organized to read.  This, if true will be a benefit to the new reader.  A new better organized version will always be more difficult for a reader who is very familiar with the old and most readers of this forum fall in that category.  I think we will only have an idea of its success when we have used it in real work for a year or two (those cases where we have to go and look things up) and when we see new developing judges try to use it for the first time.
Created: 25-Jan-20 03:03
Clark Chapin
Nationality: United States
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Certain aspects of this, as Rob says, remind me of the metaphor about corporate restructuring:
"At the zoo, the zookeeper whacks the trunk of the tree with a baseball bat and all of the monkeys change branches."
Still, the improvement in logical flow will, in the future, benefit us all...if we live long enough.
Created: 25-Jan-20 03:07
John Christman
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My biggest concern with the changes lies with the requirement to identify the protestee at the time the protest is filed and that it cannot be fixed/corrected before the hearing.  If a protesting boat realizes it before the time limit, their only option is to file another hearing request, they are not allowed to change the original.  Think of what the response of the sailor will be to making a simple change in the request.  Now think what their response will be when they are told that the new hearing request was filed too late.  Will that be considered a good reason to extend the time limit or will it be invalid?  Why didn't they know what the right sail number or boat name and which will take precedence?.  Will a protest committee be allowed to start a hearing without a protestee because no boat with that sail number exists or with the wrong protestee because the sail number exists but is for the wrong boat?  If they do start the hearing can they then bring the right boat in as a third boat involved in the incident that may have broken a rule?  To do that they would have to stop the hearing and they reschedule it.  This seems a very inefficient way to fix a simple problem up front.
Created: 25-Jan-20 03:37
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Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
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1
Rob ... thank you for that excellent post.  That's exactly what I was hoping for.  

Patching old holes (your first 1/2) is the no-brainer. Absolutely do that.   It's very helpful to read what you think the important fixes were. 

My concerns are with the work flow aspects and the occasional double-negative logic structure make it difficult to understand the rules. 

My personal view is that humans are storytellers. Yes, the old structure had repetitive structures, but it told a story. 

Most racers do not spend a lot of time in Part 5 until they have a need.  We judges, RO's, TC's, we will live in it and learn where things are ... put our colored tabs on the edges of our pages and we'll be able to find things. 

We'll just have to see if racers jumping into Part 5 on an as needed basis will find what they need and understand it if/when they do. 
Created: 25-Jan-20 13:38
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Angelo Guarino
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John C re: "If they do start the hearing can they then bring the right boat in as a third boat involved in the incident that may have broken a rule?"

I don't think so .. as it seems they'd be in a validity Catch-22. 
Created: 25-Jan-20 15:02
Doc Sullivan
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As we are there to support our customers I think we can have a workaround For instance the Jury secretary can have a list of competitors and before accepting a protest have the protestor confirm they have the correct boat/sail number noted before accepting a protest as well as having signage to that effect at the protest desk. We all agree that sailors do not live in Part 5 rules. I think it is our duty to educate them before they are told their protest is invalid
Created: 25-Jan-20 17:21
John Christman
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Ang -
I think this may be a grey area that needs official clarification.  The rule requires the protestor to "identify ... the protestee".  The rule doesn't require the protestor to identify the correct protestee, just a protestee.  As long as the protest meets the requirement then it could be valid.  I think there are three paths here.  The protestee exists and comes to the hearing or does not come, or does not exist.

(Let's assume all other validity requirements were met.)

The protestee exists and comes to the hearing:
I think the protest is probably valid and you are into fact finding.  The protestee says they weren't involved in the incident, but between everyone they identify the boat that actually was involved in the incident.  Now the requirements of 60.4(c)(2) are met and the PC can bring in the right boat.  The original protestee is still a party to the hearing, but is in no risk of breaking a rule in that incident.

The protestee exists and doesn't come to the hearing:
I think this is really a combination of the other two possibilities.

The protestee doesn't exist and thus can't come to the hearing:
Again, looking at the black and white of the rules, the protest is probably still valid.  A protestee has been named which fulfills the requirement.  The protest is found to be valid and during the fact finding process the protestor is able to identify the correct boat.  Again the requirements of 60.4(c)(2) are met and the PC can bring in the right boat.  A simple scenario where this could happen is that Boat A protests Boat B but gets the sail number wrong on the protest because they transpose some numbers.  Boat B knows they are being protested but they don't appear on the hearing schedule because their sail number isn't listed.  Boat A goes into the hearing and says they were protesting Boat B.  Should we be forced to decide the protest is invalid because of a clerical error?

So, to me, in the absence of better instruction about a requirement to identify the correct protestee, which is not in the rule, it seems that you can get to the right place.  But this is an overly complicated procedure that will simply take more time when it would be simple enough to allow the protestee to be fixed before the hearing and then allowing the protestee the time they need to prepare.
Created: 25-Jan-20 17:23
John Christman
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I agree with Doc.  When possible we should be doing all we can to help our customers.  The last thing we want is sailors thinking we are doing everything we can to avoid hearing protests through technicalities.
Created: 25-Jan-20 17:26
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Angelo Guarino
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  • Regional Judge
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John C re: " The rule requires the protestor to "identify ... the protestee".  The rule doesn't require the protestor to identify the correct protestee, just a protestee." (I added bold emphasis)

IMO, swapping "a" for "the" is doing a lot of the work in your assertion.  The rule says "the".

60.3 Delivering a Protest (a) When delivered, a protest shall be in writing and identify the protestor, the protestee, and the incident.

The word "the" is also used in "the incident".  Would we accept a change in "the incident" as well as long as they described "an incident"?  I don't think so.

RRS 60.3 is changeable by an SI.  Maybe just change it to be more accommodating .. 

SI #.#  60.3(a) is replaced by, "When delivered, a protest shall be in writing and identify the protestor and the incident, and identify or uniquely describe the protestee."

With above, you could declare the protest valid if they have something to hang their hat on.  For instance .. "a J22 with a yellow spin" or "the j22 with the helmsman wearing a red coat".  Once valid, you have options .. ID the protestee in the hearing, close the hearing, notify the protestee and restart with them .. or close the hearing and have the PC protest the boat and combine the 2 protests.

Ang

PS: I agree we want to be helpful and that racers are our customers. But I also think we need to be consistent in how we read things.  If we are going to vary something and it's an allowable change, put it in an NOR/SI.
Created: 25-Jan-20 17:48
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John Allan
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 'Is there anyone here that feels this is an improvement or makes things easier to understand or navigate?'

I think it's a matter of getting used to the rearrangements.  Experienced judges are used to finding certain things in certain places, and now when we want to look at the exact words of a rule we have to go searching for it in a different place.  At the moment that's annoying.

But consider it from the POV of someone that is not used to the old Part 5.  The new structure is more logical and consistent and they will probably find it better.
Created: 25-Jan-20 22:18
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John Allan
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  • National Judge
1
 John Christman said Created: Today 03:37
 
My biggest concern with the changes lies with the requirement to identify the protestee at the time the protest is filed and that it cannot be fixed/corrected before the hearing.  If a protesting boat realizes it before the time limit, their only option is to file another hearing request, they are not allowed to change the original.  Think of what the response of the sailor will be to making a simple change in the request.  Now think what their response will be when they are told that the new hearing request was filed too late.

The old system allowed a boat to deliver a 'pro forma' protest within the time limit:  that is one that they knew did not comply with all the requirements, but which did comply with the time limit requirement.  This meant that the protestor would not need to present evidence and argument in the hearing about good reasons for the protest committee to extend the time limit.  Arguably this was of benefit to the protest committee because it encouraged protestors to give the committee early notice of a protest.

When the defect in the protest was failure to identify the protestee, which could be done up to the beginning of the hearing, this threw the system into an endless loop:
  • the protestor had up until the start of the hearing to identify the protestee but ,
  • the hearing could not begin until the parties, including the protestee had been given notice of time and place and protest information, but
  • the protestee could not be identified, so notice could not be given to them, so
  • the hearing could be held up for an indefinite period, perhaps forever, until the protestor identified the protestee.

The new system no longer allows this.

Where a protestor wants to change some required element of a protest, you are quite right that the way to do this is to deliver a new protest.  In the pencil and paper days, it was quite easy for the protestor to front up at the protest desk and ask to get his protest form back and change it (but problems might arise when some well meaning person in the race office, or some other not so well meaning person 'corrected' the protest form on the protestor's behalf).  Using computerised systems like rrs.org this would require somewhat elaborate coding and structures.

While none of us will much like the 'Computer says no' response, I think that the requirement to deliver a new protest is not too unreasonable.  It certainly makes the processes of the protest commitee more orderly.

Will that be considered a good reason to extend the time limit or will it be invalid?  Why didn't they know what the right sail number or boat name and which will take precedence?.

Where a protestor has genuine difficulty in identifying the protestee, then I would certainly consider this a good reason to extend the time limit.  What John C has listed are factors that the protest committee would consider.

Will a protest committee be allowed to start a hearing without a protestee because no boat with that sail number exists

Maybe not.  If the identified 'protestee' does not exist, then notification of the hearing cannot be given.  OTOH, opening the hearing in the absence of the non-existent party and declaring the protest invalid might be the quickest way to finalise the protest.

 or with the wrong protestee because the sail number exists but is for the wrong boat?

John C dealt with this in his post of  Created: Today 17:23.

You can't have a 'wrong protestee'.  The protestee is the boat identified in the protest.  If the protestor has identified the wrong boat in their protest they are bound by that:  the protest committee would find that the protestee that had been identified broke no rule and dismiss the protest.

If the protestee in this scenario does not come to the hearing there may be a bit of a problem.  The protest committee might decide to continue the hearing and accept the evidence of the protestor and penalise the protestee.  After that she could go for a rehearing, which she might or might not win.

If they do start the hearing can they then bring the right boat in as a third boat involved in the incident that may have broken a rule?

 
Angelo Guarino said  Created: Today 15:02 

I don't think so .. as it seems they'd be in a validity Catch-22. 

I disagree.  I think they can.

 The protest with the wrongly identified protestee will be valid as far as it goes.

RRS 60.4(c)(2) allows a protest committee to protest a boat, even if the protest is based on information from a report from a person with a conflict of interest (that is the protestor) if it learns that information during the hearing of a valid protest.

The protest committee has a discretion whether or not they do this (RRS 60.1:  a committee may protest a boat.)

To do that they would have to stop the hearing and they reschedule it.  This seems a very inefficient way to fix a simple problem up front.

That's what a protest committee has always had to do when they want to protest a boat in these circumstances.
Created: 25-Jan-20 23:26
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Umpire
1
I'd like to address a comment above from Clark.  He says, " For 2024, the discussion question that I posed to other judges at several events was: "Can an action or omission by a race committee be 'improper' if it breaks no rule?" In most cases, the initial reaction was "no", but it was easy to construct or find a counterexample, especially in the RYA Appeals. "

I just happen to have written about this in my blog, more than ten years ago.  Here's what I said then, and I'm sticking to it:

'“Improper” is a very strong term.  To me, this word means redress for an action or inaction by the race committee can be granted in only two cases:  either the race committee broke a rule, or they made a decision that was patently and intentionally unfair to certain boats.  A race committee decision that was within the rules and made without bias might be wrong, but it’s not “improper”.
 
'Suppose for example there’s very light wind.  The leaders are at a dead stop, a few hundred meters from the finishing line, when the race committee decides it’s unlikely that any boat will finish within the time limit for that race, so they abandon the race in accordance with rule 32.2.  Just after the abandonment signal a breeze fills in and it is clear that the first boat would have finished within the time limit if the race hadn’t been abandoned.  If the lead boat were to apply for redress because of the committee’s decision, they should not receive it because the race committee broke no rule and did not intentionally favor any boat, so therefore their action was not “improper” – just wrong.
 
'Suppose, on the other hand, that the race committee, seeing a local sailor leading the race, decides to shorten the race at the next mark, claiming it was unlikely that any boat would finish in time but actually because they wanted that local sailor to win and it was unlikely she would do so if the race continued.  That decision would be "improper" because it was made with the intent of favoring a particular sailor.  It's not enough, in my mind, that the decision is unfair; to be "improper" it has to be intentionally unfair.  
 
'As another example, the RC signals an individual recall, then a few seconds later removes that signal even though one of the boats over early has not returned.  That action is “improper” because rule 29.1 says, “[the] flag shall be displayed until all such boats have sailed completely to the pre-start side of the starting line …” and the RC broke that rule.  If a boat was over early then decided not to return to the start based on the RC’s action, and she gets scored OCS, redress should be considered.'

This opinion was part of a blog on why I don't like redress at all.  The whole post is at https://tinyurl.com/v9jyn9rx.
Created: 25-Jan-20 23:52
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John Allan
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  • National Judge
1
Identifying the 'correct' protestee

Firstly, I don't think it is necessary to amplify 'identified' in the rule in any way.  Of course 'identified' means uniquely identified.  The purpose of the protestee being identified is so that the protest hearing can take place: that clearly requires that a unique protestee be identified.

IMHO, if the protestor identifies a boat that exists as the protestee, then that is the protestee, and if it is not the boat that the protestor meant to protest against, then tough luck for the protestor:  they are bound by what they have said.

If, on the other hand, the protestee that has been identifed (usually by a sail number) does not exist, then John C began a discussion about this at  Created: Yesterday 17:23

The protestee doesn't exist and thus can't come to the hearing:

Again, looking at the black and white of the rules, the protest is probably still valid.

While minds may differ, I tend to disagree.  Something that does not exist can't be 'identified', so a protest with a non-existent sail number has not identified a protestee and is invalid, and as I have argued elsewhere does not comply with the definition of protest and is not a protest at all.

Furthermore if no existing protestee is identified then no existing protestee can be notified of the time place and protest details of a hearing, so no hearing can take place.

A protestee has been named which fulfills the requirement.

The requirement is not that the protestor 'provide the name of a protestee'.  It is that the protest shall 'identify the protestee'.

I argue that you can't identify something that does not exist.

The protest is found to be valid

I think that in a well run event, the non-existence will be picked up much earlier. As Doc has mentioned earlier, I would expect the race office where the protest was delivered to have a list of entrants and contact details, and quite soon check that list and see that the 'protestee' wasn't on it and do something to resolve that, like tell the protestor, and inform the protest committee chair.

You're not going to blindly put a notice on the ONB scheduling a protest against a non-existent sail number.

And hopefully, you are going to have given the protestor early warning that their protest is wrong and that they need to go and find an actual boat to protest against.

 and during the fact finding process the protestor is able to identify the correct boat.  Again the requirements of 60.4(c)(2) are met and the PC can bring in the right boat.

I don't think those requirements are met because I don't think the protest is valid.

The protest committee could protest a boat if:
  • somehow or other they had heard evidence from a witness who did not have a conflict of interest (RRS 60.3(b)(3), or
  • they learnt that the incident may have resulted in injury or serious damage. (RRS 60.4(c)(1).

A simple scenario where this could happen is that Boat A protests Boat B but gets the sail number wrong on the protest because they transpose some numbers.  Boat B knows they are being protested but they don't appear on the hearing schedule because their sail number isn't listed.  Boat A goes into the hearing and says they were protesting Boat B.  Should we be forced to decide the protest is invalid because of a clerical error? 

Yes:  the error is highly material and the protestor should be bound by what they wrote.

It would be nice if an electronic system, or some race office person checked the sail number against the LOE but that's a bonus.
Created: 25-Jan-21 00:42
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Benjamin Harding
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Generally agree with John Allen on all of this.

I have mountains of educational material which needs updating, but on the whole I think the rewrite is more fluid. 

B
Created: 25-Jan-21 01:17
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Angelo Guarino
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John A re: "Something that does not exist can't be 'identified', so a protest with a non-existent sail number has not identified a protestee and is invalid, and as I have argued elsewhere does not comply with the definition of protest and is not a protest at all"

That was what I meant by a validity Catch-22.  I don't think you can go forward with an un-uniquely ID'd protestee .. call it valid and then use info from that hearing to figure out who the protestee is supposed to be. 
Created: 25-Jan-21 03:57
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John Allan
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Ang,  see above

 I think the protest committee could protest a boat if:
  • somehow or other they had heard evidence from a witness who did not have a conflict of interest (RRS 60.3(b)(3), or
  • they learnt that the incident may have resulted in injury or serious damage. (RRS 60.4(c)(1).
Created: 25-Jan-21 06:17
Myrto Antonopoulou
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
John Christman,
 
In my opinion, if the protestee doesn’t exist, the protest is invalid and the requirements of RRS 60.4(c)(2) are not met. This derives from the rules:
 
Protest (by Definition) is an allegation made under rule 60 by a boat or a committee that a boat has broken a rule. Boat (by Terminology) is a sailboat that is subject to the rules.
Is a boat that does not exist subject to the rules? I do not think so, since the non-existent boat does not participate or intends to participate in the event, and certainly does not sail in or near the racing area intending to race e.t.c..
So, a protest with a non-existent sail number does not comply with the Definition Protest, for the above mentioned reasons and, under new RRS 60.4(a)(1), is invalid.
 
This means that the PC shall [under RRS 60.5 (a)] conduct a hearing to decide that.  

The fact that the non-existent protestee cannot be informed about the time and place of the hearing, is not relevant. RRS 63.1 states that this is one of rights the parties have.  
Party for a protest hearing (by Definition) is the protestor and the protestee.
But, for the reasons already stated, a non-existent boat is not subject to the rules and one cannot allege that she has broken a rule. Therefore, she cannot be a protestee and she does not meet the Definition Party.

So, I believe the PC complies with RRS 63.1 by notifying just the protestor, the sole party of this protest hearing. 
Created: 25-Jan-21 17:43
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
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2
Myrto,

Regardless of whether your argument persuades everybody, it is one of the most entertaining pieces on the RRS I've ever read.  I particularly like your analysis of the rights and duties of non-existent boats.  

 Thank you for perking up my day!  
Created: 25-Jan-21 18:03
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Angelo Guarino
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Both Myrto and John A play with the ideas that what first appears to be a protest .. might not be a protest at all.  Myrto looks to the def:protest and a non-existent boat and John looks to the same question in a slightly different way.  

Protest An allegation made under rule 60 by a boat or a committee that a boat has broken a rule.

So one might look to 63.2(a) and conclude that with such an obvious defect, the PC does not have to hold a hearing based upon it not being a protest in the first place.

63.2 Hearings (a) The protest committee shall hear each protest or request delivered unless it allows it to be withdrawn.

But when we look deeper into hearings, we get ..

63.4 Hearing Procedure (a) The protest committee shall first consider validity. The hearing shall be closed if (1) a protest or request is invalid,

OK .. if we have a hearing anyway .. and we look at validity . we can close it after opening if it is invalid for not meeting the def: protest.

But ... if we look at 60.4 Protest Validity .. we have a logical conundrum.

60.4 Protest Validity
(a) A protest is invalid
(1) if it does not comply with the definition Protest or rule 60.2 or 60.3,

"A protest is invalid if it doesn't comply with the definition Protest ....".  

Hmmmm ...

For that sentence-segment to make any sense at all, we have to hold the idea that if any of the elements of def: protest, 60.2 or 60.3 are present, then it is still a protest .. it is just an invalid one.

The elements of def: protest are:
  1. An allegation by a boat or a committee
  2. that a boat has broken a rule

Then 60.4 goes on to list "60.2 or 60.3".   
  1. 60.2 is the notifying intent to protest stuff.  
  2. 60.3 is the delivery requirements which include the ID'ing of the protestee, protestor and the incident.

OK .. so now we go back up to 63.2 (the requirement to hear each protest).. which leads to 63.4 (validity check).

When taken as a whole like this, I think the rules imply that PC's can't dismiss a filing based upon the conclusion that "it's not a protest" based upon some core missing piece from def: protest or required identifying component in 60.3.

The sentence in 60.4, "A protest is invalid if it doesn't comply with the definition Protest" seems to underline that point.
Created: 25-Jan-21 19:36
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
So glad I procrastinated on studying the new Part 5 till after reading Rob Overton's remarks!
Created: 25-Jan-24 19:05
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
0
I'm a little confused. 

RRS 69.3 - Code of Ethics or Disciplinary Code? 

If Code of Ethics, what has changed? Can someone point me to the correct Code of Ethics? 
Created: 25-Jan-24 22:51
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Ben, I found 2 Ethics Codes .. one Regulation 36 in the combined 2023 WS Regulations .. and then a separate 2024 Code of Ethics doc.

I could not find the standalone Dec 2024 COE browsing under WS's Documents page however .. but I did find it using a search engine.
Created: 25-Jan-25 00:54
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
0
Thanks Ang.

To explain my question further, the RRS 2025 FINAL document RRS 69.3 references WS Code of Ethics.

RRS 2021 AND 2025 RRS Study Version rule 69.3 references WS Disciplinary Code (App 6 - Reg 35 I think.) 

The Code of Ethics as I find is a short regulation (Reg 36) saying WS Officials should be nice people (and what to do if they aren't). But not much procedural guidance for MNA.

To me 69.3 makes more sense to reference Disciplinary Code (Reg. 35).

So I'm wondering what I'm missing with this. 

Does one reference the other? Is one changed to incorporate the other?

Why difference between FINAL and Study Version?

Hmm.


Created: 25-Jan-25 01:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Ben the 2nd doc has a Dec 2024 date on it with the correct title ... so maybe they just haven't put it in the docs folder where people can find it yet. 
Created: 25-Jan-25 01:16
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
0
Righto.

The Disciplinary Code seems to be incorporated in the Code of Ethics.

So it all makes sense now.

Created: 25-Jan-25 16:02
P
Niko Kotsatos
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
Ang, all,
Despite being a (soon to be expired) judge in training, and having heard many protests over the years, I was not particularly familiar with the old part 5. Looking at both briefly, the organization of the new rule is way more helpful for me personally. That said, there are plenty of silly things, and I'm sure I'll find more, as you all have. For example, "Informing The Protestee" is a better title for a group of rules that each involve informing a protestee. "Intention to Protest" might be accurate, but it is unhelpful.

Another is 60.4a badly needs an ellipsis... lest it suggest all protests are invalid! This is unfortunately a final wording to an otherwise (arguably) useful change that could use some additional editing care.

I agree with many of the other wording issues that were noted above (and in Ang's other thread), and with Rob's suggestion that reasons should have been given for each wording change where possible.
Created: 25-Jan-27 19:27
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