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Assuming that mark is to be left to starboard, as it appears to have been drawn, rule 18.3 does not apply. If you mean they are both going to "shoot" up to pass the mark to port, I'm not sure that's even possible based on the drawing. But, under those circumstances, I don't think rule 18 really is in play. Once blue is leeward she can luff up to round the mark. 18.3 doesn't apply because yellow did not enter the zone on Starboard fetching the mark.
Hi Catalan, I agree with Anthony - as it appears the Mark has to be left to starboard. The one rule that could be in play is rule 13 - blue has to keep clear of yellow while tacking. A bit more of a description always helps for people to judge the situation as you picture it.
Blue’s original mark room ends when Yellow passes HTW and they are on opposite tacks R 18.1a(1).
Yellow may break R 13 as she tacks.
Blue is subject to R 13 while she tacks.
It may be possible for Yellow to head-reach around the mark without tacking, and so R18.3 could apply when Blue tacks – but we do not know yet.
R 18.2(a)(1) does not apply after the tacks as the ‘reaches the zone’ is not satisfied.
To me, the question is whether R 18.2 (c) is turned on after Blue completes her tack? As neither boat appears to be fetching the mark, it makes no sense to try to apply R 18 – just the rules of Part 2.
You may be right, Angelo. I included that possibility in my post. But even if yellow qualifies for "fetching," the other requirement of 18.3 is not met (she didn't enter the zone on Starboard). So, 18.3 would not apply.
The significance of the new wording for 18.3 is that when it applies it turns off all of 18.2. So my question is that if we conclude that if Yellow is not fetching the mark, and the conditions for 18.3 do exist and it does not apply and so does not turn off 18.2, then do the conditions exist that turn on 18.2(c) and grant mark room to Blue (as soon as she passes HTW to stbd).
Position 2 is ambiguous as to which hull broke the plane of the zone first. Blue is still clear astern yellow, even in position 2. However, yellow has gone through head-to-wind inside the mark. We don't really know if either boat is accelerating or slowing down. Port rounding -- yellow is short of the mark, so NOT "fetching" proper course. Starboard rounding, so it looks like an emeregency tack to try to salvage the mark and without giving the blue time to respond (we don't know if there was any communication), both could be guilty of any number of transgressions, and like so many of these speculative adventures would depend on testimony at the protest.
Yes, I agree, Angelo. I was not clear in my statement. We are making a lot of assumptions about what the OP really meant. Yellow could be said to be fetching if she doesn't have to tack to round (not at all clear from the diagram, but let's assume she can do so). In that case, rule 18.3 states that 18.2 does not apply. Blue is not entitled to mark room. However, once the tack is complete, blue is leeward and would have luffing rights. 18.3 a and b do not apply because yellow did not enter the zone on Starboard. The way I interpret the new rule 18 concerning tacking in the zone is that
If you tack in the zone, a boat that entered the zone on starboard can get an overlap to leeward and you have to give room
A boat that entered on starboard cannot be forced to luff above close hauled.
18 is basically shut off if you both tack in the zone. Work it out through the other part 2 rules.
Anthony .. on your 1,2,3 .. with my suggested [additions] and subtractions ...
If you tack [from port to starboard] in the zone [of a mark to be rounded to port], a boat that entered the zone on starboard [and is fetching the mark] can get an overlap to leeward[inside overlap,] and you have to give room[mark-room under 18.3(b)]
A[If you force a] boat that entered on starboard cannot be forced [and is fetching the mark] to luff above close hauled [you break 18.3(a)]
18 is basically shut off if you both tack in the zone. Work it out through the other part 2 rules.
Joseph .. being only 1/2 BL below the layline, there is the possibility that Yellow could use her speed/momentum to get around the mark without changing tacks. I think many judges would be satisfied that Yellow meets the definition of fetching at #3. Is she "clearly fetching"? No.
If she was a full BL below or greater, IMO then that's more clear that she is not fetching. It's a grey-area judgement call.
I think there is a basic misunderstanding in your posts. There is NO requirement in the first part of18.3 that the stbd boat has to have entered the zone on stbd; only that one of the boats is on stbd and is fetching the mark. That stbd boat could have tacked from port inside the zone. Having been on stbd since entering the zone only applies to the IF section that activates 18 (a) & (b).
Isn't it as simple as - both boats enter on port tack into the zone - so their is no other boat on starboard tack.... as 18.3 requires. So it boils down to rule 18.2 not being intor effect for neither of them. Rules 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15 will apply for what continues. There is no Zone, there is no 18.2 - both are tacking in the zone and turning 18.2 off. From the picture it appears as Yellow made a clean tack to starboard, Blue has to give RoW. Blue is entitled to luff Yellow when overlapped. But Blue cannot tack.
That is how I see it now if the mark is to be left to Port
Gijs, I think you have over simplified how the 2025 RRS 18.3 works.
Both boats enter the zone overlapped on port tack: RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies and Y outside, is required to give B mark-room.
Y passes head to wind. RRS 18 in it's entirety ceases to apply. Y is now on starboard tack and is not fetching the mark.
B then passes head to wind, boats are now on same tack in the zone and RRS 18 again applies.
Y is on starboard but is not fetching the mark, so RRS 18.3 does not apply. RRS 18.2(a) does not apply (because it was switched off when Y tacked and the conditions applicable when reaching the zone do not apply). So RRS 18.2(c) applies and Y, overlapped outside is again required to give B mark-room, that is room to sail to the mark.
I agree that RRS now gives no boat any room to tack whatsoever.
B is entitled to luff up to a course directly to the mark and will be within the mark-room to which she is entitled if she does so.
If B luffs fast and hard and does not give Y room to keep clear, then B may break RRS 16.1 but is exonerated if she does not change course beyond the direct course to the mark and stays within the mark-room to which she is entitled.
Take away the Mark (as a lot of PC's do in Mark rounding situations) - then Blue has rights, being overlapped to luff Yellow as far as head to wind.....RRS 11. Blue only has to obey RRS 15 ..... (If Blue can fetch the Mark this way without tacking (passing head to wind), then she is fine and indeed right to room as inside boat. If she cant make the Mark ..... and Yellow can ..... Then Yellow still has to keep clear if Blue below her and the Mark is not bailing out.)
BUT OVERALL ON THIS ONE - the whole situation and events following should have been described more clearly ! Now it is leading to a lot of What If's ...... too many.
Does the following make the scenario any easier to understand?
The diagram suggests that the boats were rounding to starboard. Accordingly, Yellow had mark-room at position 2 because Rule 18 applied and rule 18.2(a) granted mark-room to the inside overlapped boat
When Yellow passed HTW between 2 & 3, rule 18.2(b) turned off rule 18.2(a) [and Yellow's mark-room].. As an aside, rule 18.1(a) turned off the whole of rule 18 because the boats were on opposite tacks for a short time until Blue passed HTW..
When Blue passed HTW, the boats were once again on the same tack, tacking simultaneously and rule 18 applied anew;
Rule 18.2(a) did not apply, because it only starts to apply when the first of the two boats reaches the zone..
Rule 18.3 didn't apply because the boats were not rounding the mark to Port. Rule 18.2(c) thereafter applied and Blue required to give Yellow mark-room.
If on the other hand, the boats were rounding to Port, Yellow had mark-room at position 2 which turned off when Yellow passed HTW as per rule 18.2(b). However, when Blue passed HTW between positions 2 & 3, rule 18.3 turned on because the boats were rounding to Port, and accordingly; no part of rule 18.2 thereafter applied, and as "the other boat",(Yellow), had not been on starboard tack since entering te zone, Blue was unrestrained by the requirements of rule 18.3(a)&(b).while sailing to the mark.
Finally, the manoeuvring depicted in the scenario is quite a dangerous one for Yellow, because she is exposed to Blue protesting that Yellow broke rule 13 when she passed HTW thereby forcing Blue to tack to avoid contact.
John A it's surprising to me that you unambiguously stated in you port-rounding analysis that Yellow is not fetchingthe mark.
I've had other discussions with some other likewise very experienced judges (prior to the 2025 rewrite of 18.3) that there is a grey area below the layline to a windward mark .. probably 1/2 BL at least .. maybe a bit more in some circumstances .. where because a boat could likely maneuver around the mark using their momentum without changing tacks .. then they meet the def: fetching.
IMO .. for the purposes of 18.3 .. I'd say Yellow is fetching the mark.
Since this is a central Q in the OP .. I'd really like to hear other POV's.
PS .. I edited this comment after rereading Phil's comment. I misread it the first time.
Well my friend .. you've given me A LOT of practice! LOL
PS: When you do your next post, try to think through the obvious condition questions people may have and simply list them below your drawing. In this case, you could have added "port rounding" since that was your intent .. and you could have focused the discussion on "fetching" by asking that question .. "Is Yellow fetching the mark? Does 18.3 apply?". I will also try to do a better job too, by checking that before I release them to the forum. - Ang
@ Catalan - I suggest that mysteries are better avoided ..... It saves a lot of people a lot of time on speculating and discussing what the case exactly is, or which scenario's may apply. No offense here, just to keep things lean and clean.
"A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack."
Depending on weather (especially wave state), speed after the tack, weight of boat (momentum) and boat-handling ability, it is entirely possible that Yellow is fetching per the definition above. Furthermore, how Yellow eventually rounded the mark may well tell us if she is indeed fetching at point 3.
Yep, Yellow appears to have plenty of scope to luff and pass the mark on the required side without having to tack and is therefore fetching the mark. Phil.
Nope Ange, but then I'm down under. There's a test in AUS called the "pub test". If it passes the scrutinary of the pub patrons, then it's OK. And I think our opinions pass this test. Phil.
I would go slightly further than Phil: if I read the diagram correctly Yellow, RoW, luffed and passed head to wind. Before Yellow reached a close-hauled course, Blue was on a converging course with Yellow. Blue luffed and passed head to wind. Yellow broke RRS13.
However, if we assume that Blue could sail her course without taking avoiding action until Yellow reached close-hauled, : When Blue passes head to wind, Yellow and Blue are on the same tack and are required to leave the mark on the same side. Rule 18 applies.
If Yellow convinces the PC that, at position 3, she is in a position to pass to windward of the mark and leave it on the required side without changing tack (this assumes that Yellow is a boat that is capable maintaining momentum to shoot the mark, and that she still has sufficient way left to do this when coming out of what looks like a very tight tack then: - the first sentence of RRS18.3 applies and RRS18.2 does not apply between Yellow and Blue - as Yellow has not been on starboard since entering the zone so the second sentence of RRS18.3 does not apply. At position 3 Blue is subject to RRS13 until she reaches a close-hauled course after which rules 11 and 15 will apply.
Angelo, 'John A it's surprising to me that you unambiguously stated in you port-rounding analysis that Yellow is not fetchingthe mark.'
If Y is fetching the mark isn't it trivial that RRS 18.3, first sentence applies, RRS 18.2 does not apply, but RRS 18.3 second part does not, so no boat is entitled to mark room?
John
So, 18.3 would not apply.
That is an important change in the wording of 18.3 in 2025. In the other recent thread I wrote it out in this comment.
If you conclude that Yellow is fetching the mark, then 18.3 applies in Catalan's scenario, it's just that Yellow is not entitled to MR from 18.3(b).
So my question is that if we conclude that if Yellow is not fetching the mark, and the conditions for 18.3 do exist and it does not apply and so does not turn off 18.2, then do the conditions exist that turn on 18.2(c) and grant mark room to Blue (as soon as she passes HTW to stbd).
John
In that case, rule 18.3 states that 18.2 does not apply. Blue is not entitled to mark room. However, once the tack is complete, blue is leeward and would have luffing rights. 18.3 a and b do not apply because yellow did not enter the zone on Starboard.
The way I interpret the new rule 18 concerning tacking in the zone is that
subtractions...overlap to leeward[inside overlap,]andyou have to giveroom[mark-room under 18.3(b)]A[If you force a] boat that entered on starboardcannot be forced[and is fetching the mark] to luff above close hauled [you break 18.3(a)]If she was a full BL below or greater, IMO then that's more clear that she is not fetching. It's a grey-area judgement call.
YOU READ MY MIND
I'd bet dollars to donuts that our friend Catalan's intent is that he wants us:
From the picture it appears as Yellow made a clean tack to starboard, Blue has to give RoW. Blue is entitled to luff Yellow when overlapped. But Blue cannot tack.
That is how I see it now if the mark is to be left to Port
Both boats enter the zone overlapped on port tack: RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies and Y outside, is required to give B mark-room.
Y passes head to wind. RRS 18 in it's entirety ceases to apply. Y is now on starboard tack and is not fetching the mark.
B then passes head to wind, boats are now on same tack in the zone and RRS 18 again applies.
Y is on starboard but is not fetching the mark, so RRS 18.3 does not apply. RRS 18.2(a) does not apply (because it was switched off when Y tacked and the conditions applicable when reaching the zone do not apply). So RRS 18.2(c) applies and Y, overlapped outside is again required to give B mark-room, that is room to sail to the mark.
I agree that RRS now gives no boat any room to tack whatsoever.
B is entitled to luff up to a course directly to the mark and will be within the mark-room to which she is entitled if she does so.
If B luffs fast and hard and does not give Y room to keep clear, then B may break RRS 16.1 but is exonerated if she does not change course beyond the direct course to the mark and stays within the mark-room to which she is entitled.
BUT OVERALL ON THIS ONE - the whole situation and events following should have been described more clearly ! Now it is leading to a lot of What If's ...... too many.
Does the following make the scenario any easier to understand?
The diagram suggests that the boats were rounding to starboard. Accordingly, Yellow had mark-room at position 2 because Rule 18 applied and rule 18.2(a) granted mark-room to the inside overlapped boat
When Yellow passed HTW between 2 & 3, rule 18.2(b) turned off rule 18.2(a) [and Yellow's mark-room].. As an aside, rule 18.1(a) turned off the whole of rule 18 because the boats were on opposite tacks for a short time until Blue passed HTW..
When Blue passed HTW, the boats were once again on the same tack, tacking simultaneously and rule 18 applied anew;
Rule 18.2(c) thereafter applied and Blue required to give Yellow mark-room.
If on the other hand, the boats were rounding to Port, Yellow had mark-room at position 2 which turned off when Yellow passed HTW as per rule 18.2(b).
However, when Blue passed HTW between positions 2 & 3, rule 18.3 turned on because the boats were rounding to Port, and accordingly;
no part of rule 18.2 thereafter applied, and
as "the other boat",(Yellow), had not been on starboard tack since entering te zone, Blue was unrestrained by the requirements of rule 18.3(a)&(b).while
sailing to the mark.
Finally, the manoeuvring depicted in the scenario is quite a dangerous one for Yellow, because she is exposed to Blue protesting that Yellow broke rule 13 when she passed HTW thereby forcing Blue to tack to avoid contact.
Cheers, Phil.
I've had other discussions with some other likewise very experienced judges (prior to the 2025 rewrite of 18.3) that there is a grey area below the layline to a windward mark .. probably 1/2 BL at least .. maybe a bit more in some circumstances .. where because a boat could likely maneuver around the mark using their momentum without changing tacks .. then they meet the def: fetching.
IMO .. for the purposes of 18.3 .. I'd say Yellow is fetching the mark.
Since this is a central Q in the OP .. I'd really like to hear other POV's.
PS .. I edited this comment after rereading Phil's comment. I misread it the first time.
Well my friend .. you've given me A LOT of practice! LOL
PS: When you do your next post, try to think through the obvious condition questions people may have and simply list them below your drawing. In this case, you could have added "port rounding" since that was your intent .. and you could have focused the discussion on "fetching" by asking that question .. "Is Yellow fetching the mark? Does 18.3 apply?". I will also try to do a better job too, by checking that before I release them to the forum. - Ang
Depending on weather (especially wave state), speed after the tack, weight of boat (momentum) and boat-handling ability, it is entirely possible that Yellow is fetching per the definition above. Furthermore, how Yellow eventually rounded the mark may well tell us if she is indeed fetching at point 3.
Yep, Yellow appears to have plenty of scope to luff and pass the mark on the required side without having to tack and is therefore fetching the mark. Phil.
However, if we assume that Blue could sail her course without taking avoiding action until Yellow reached close-hauled, :
When Blue passes head to wind, Yellow and Blue are on the same tack and are required to leave the mark on the same side. Rule 18 applies.
If Yellow convinces the PC that, at position 3, she is in a position to pass to windward of the mark and leave it on the required side without changing tack (this assumes that Yellow is a boat that is capable maintaining momentum to shoot the mark, and that she still has sufficient way left to do this when coming out of what looks like a very tight tack then:
- the first sentence of RRS18.3 applies and RRS18.2 does not apply between Yellow and Blue
- as Yellow has not been on starboard since entering the zone so the second sentence of RRS18.3 does not apply.
At position 3 Blue is subject to RRS13 until she reaches a close-hauled course after which rules 11 and 15 will apply.
If Y is fetching the mark isn't it trivial that RRS 18.3, first sentence applies, RRS 18.2 does not apply, but RRS 18.3 second part does not, so no boat is entitled to mark room?