In this scenario, doesn't 18.2(c) kick in at some point here, say at or after P3 (maybe right as 18.2(a) turns off) to give yellow mark room for the final part of the rounding?  I would hope that the rules permit yellow to tack around the mark and if there is contact during the tack, blue would be found guilty of not giving  sufficient mark room.

But interested in what the experts say.

Answering John:  

A1: Yes, Yellow brakes rule 11, as she is a windward boat failing to keep clear. However, if her luff is consistent with rounding the mark, she is exonerated under rule 43.1(b) for breaking rule 11 because she is sailing within the mark-room to which she's entitled.

A2:  If there is contact at position 3, then Yellow brakes rule 13. You don't say -- when Blue changes course after position 2, does she give Yellow room to keep clear? If not, she breaks rule 16.1 and Yellow is exonerated under rule 43.1(b).  

Incidentally, Yellow tacked in the zone so rule 18.3 applies, and so rule 18.2 does not apply between her and any boat on starboard tack that is fetching the mark, e.g. Blue. (Or, if you like, because Blue tacked in the zone rule 18.3 applies and since Yellow is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not apply.) Either way, Yellow is not entitled to mark-room at or after position 3. 

A3: If contact occurs after position 3 and before Yellow reaches a close-hauled course, then Yellow breaks rule 13. If the reason contact occurs is that Blue changes course and does not give Yellow room to keep clear, then Blue brakes rule 16.1 and Yellow is exonerated. Again, note that neither boat is entitled to mark-room

The key to these answers is that when a rule of section B or C applies, the rules of Section A still apply, but if a boat is sailing within the room to which she is entitled, she is exonerated for breaking any rule of Section A or rules 15 or 16.1.

To answer Matt: no, rule. 18.3 turns off rule 18.2 completely, so as long as both boats are on starboard tack and fetching the mark, neither one is entitled to mark-room.

When Yellow passed head to wind her right to mark-room  (previously established under 18.2(a)(1)) was extinguished by rule 18.2(b). In addition,the boats were also momentarilly on opposite tacks and rule 18.1(a)(1) turned off the whole of rule 18 - " between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward" - so no rule 18.3.

While Yellow was tacking, and until Blue passed head to wind, Yellow was give-way under rule 13, as tacking boat, and Blue was subject to rule 16.1.

When Blue passed head to wind and Yellow was still tacking;
[1] the boats were tacking similtaneously, so rule 13 applied with Yellow give-way.
[2] rule 16.1 applied to Blue until Yellow completed her tack and became ROW under rule 11.
[3] rule 18.3 applied, because Blue passed head to wind from port to starboard in the zone and Yellow was fetching the mark.

When Yellow completed her tack and Blue was still tacking;
[1] Yellow became ROW under rule 11 
[2] Yellow was subject to giving Blue Room under rule 15,

I think some commentators overlook the fact that the requirements of (1) not causing a boat to sail above close hauled and (2) having to give mark-room  if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her - as in rule rule 18.3(a)&(b) - only apply "if the other boat has been on starboard tack since entering the zone", which was not the case in the subject scenario, thus resulting in neither boat being entitled to mark-room.

Anyway, that's my take on the discussion. Hope that works for you.




      

       

At and after 3, both boats are on the same tack so 18.1 applies..18.2, neither does 18.3. So outside boat owes inside boat mark room.

Under what (2025-2028) rule(s) can yellow get around the mark?

From what is written here, it appears yellow can get from port tack to head to wind using the "room she is entitled to" under her (initial) mark room.  But (assuming blue remains aggressive here) she can turn no further to round the mark without "tacking too close" unless blue gives her room to tack.

If at some point the outside boat owes the inside boat room, which rule number is that, and when does that kick in?

First comment - the diagram shows boats that have very tight turning circles. I would have expected boats in position 3 to be further ahead. The diagram also show Blue bearing away slightly at position 2 - I will assume that this is a drawing error.

Facts:
Yellow enters the zone close-hauled on port overlapped to windward of Blue, also close-hauled on port. The boats are half a hull width apart
Both boats luff to head to wind, and then pass head to wind from port to starboard. Yellow is now a hull width from the mark, with Blue less than half a hull width to windward.

Rules that apply
Yellow enters the zone overlapped inside Blue, and is entitled to mark room under RRS18.2(a)(1).
When Yellow passes head to wind RRS 18.2(a) ceases to apply under RRS18.2(b). Yellow is subject to RRS13.
When Blue passes head to wind, both boats are subject to RRS13, and Yellow is keep clear boat.
As both boats have passed head to wind and are now fetching the mark RRS 18.2 does not apply between them? As neither boat was on starboard when they entered the zone, neither RRS18.3(a) or (b) apply.
As Blue is right of way boat changing course she is subject to RRS 16.1

Q1 If Yellow's stern touches Blue after P2 as she luffs, does Yellow break R 11?
That depends. If contact occurs before Yellow passes head to wind,  as windward overlapped boat she breaks RRS11. However, she is exonerated under RRS 43.1(b) as she is sailing within her mark room.
If contact occurs after Yellow passe head to wind she breaks RRS 13 but cannot be exonerated as she n longer has mark-room. Unless Blue while changing course and does not give Yellow room to keep clear (and breaking RRS16.1)

Q2 If there is contact at P3, does Yellow break R 13 or does Blue break R16.1?
Yellow is still keep clear boat under RRS13. However, if Yellow is manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way and there is still contact, then Blue has not given Yellow room to keep clear as required by RRS16.1.

Q3 If contact occurs after P3, does Yellow break R 13 or Blue break R 16.1?
After P3, when boat boats have reached a close-hauled course:
- Yellow is not entitled to mark-room as RRS18.2 does not apply.
Yellow, overlapped to leeward acquires right of way when she reaches a close-hauled course. Yellow must give Blue room to keep clear, initially under RRS 15, and when changing course under RRS 16.

Both boats entered the zone, overlapped on port tack. 
18.3 does not apply as neither boats entered the zone on Starboard.

Blue was to leeward of yellow by 1/5 boat length.  (I would use feet however I do not know how big the boats are to judge the distance)
Blue bore off slightly to leeward abeam the mark
Yellow tacked to round the mark.
Blue tacked shortly after yellow and in doing so, contact was made between yellow transom and blue midship.
Contact was made prior to either boats establishing a close hauled course.
Rules 11, 13, 14, 16.1, 18.1(a), 43.1(a) apply
Yellow tacked to round the mark, as soon as Yellow passed head to wind, RRS 18.1(a) no longer applied, however, while tacking, she was not in danger of contacting blue.
As Yellow tacked first and prior to becoming close hauled contact was made with Blue and broke rule 14 however, she had no obligation to anticipate Blue to tack and was unable to keep clear of Blue and therefore exonerated under RRS 43.1(a)
When Blue tacked she had the obligation to give sufficient room for Yellow to keep clear (RRS 13 and RRS 16.1)
As Blue tacked she failed to give Yellow sufficient room to keep clear and broke RRS 16.1. 

After both boats have passed head to wind, they are no longer on opposite tacks. So by 18.1 rule 18 still applies. It is 18.2(C) that requires blue to give mark-room to yellow and allow her to round the mark as required to sail the course.

As the diagram depicts, at the time of the collision, both boats had passed head to wind and neither vessel had completed their tack (established a close-hauled course).
In accordance with 18.2(b), 18.2(a) no longer applies and therefore, neither vessel is required to give mark room until at least one of them has completed the tack.
Did I miss something?

They don't need to finish their tacks. As soon as they are not on opposite tacks mark-room applies 

Thank you everyone for your input. My take from this as follows

At P2, Yellow with mark room is entitled to luff up to HTW as she is sailing her proper course, so any contact with Blue and Blue has failed to give mark room R18.2(a). While Yellow breaks R 11, she is exonerated under R 43.

After Yellow passes HTW, her mark room ends, and she is tacking and subject to R13.

As Blue luffed immediately after Yellow, Blue with ROW is subject to R16.1.

Momentarily, the boats are on opposite tacks and 18.1(a) turns off R 18 and R 10 applies.

After Blue passes HTW, both boats are tacking and R 13 applies and Yellow on Blue’s port side keeps clear, but Blue altered course and as ROW, is subject to R16.1 (the outcome of this is not clear to me – There is no WS Case, and the closes case I could find  RYA case 1975/2 not longer applies – so a conflict between R 13 and 16.1 needs a case ?).

When Blue passes HTW to stbd, Yellow, while still tacking and subject to R 13 is on stbd and fetching the mark, and so 18.3 apples and turns off 18.2. (this discussion is important as it seems that some of the respondents do not seem to agree – so a question is “Can a boat which is tacking be fetching the mark”? – I think the answer is YES).

John

John, all good except for your reference to proper course, which is not part of mark-room.  If Yellow can luff around the mark without touching blue, she must do so, even if her proper course is to luff more sharply.

Thanks Rob,
When I said proper course, I was referring to the definition of Mark Room (a). As Yellow is entitled to sail close to the mark and from her position at P2, she is allowed to luff up to HTW, to get closer to the mark, proper course was an appropriate phrase. However as her mark room ends after HTW, Mark Room (b) does not apply.
John

Note that proper course is a condition in the definition, not a right. So if Yellow's proper course is to sail close to the mark (which, in my opinion, is true throughout this scenario), she gets room to sail to the mark, but not room to sail her proper course to the mark.  Thus, even if Yellow's proper course is to luff sharply, she is not entitled to room to do that, if, by luffing gently, she could keep clear of Blue and still sail to the mark.

Greg, I disagree that after both boats pass head to wind, "mark-room applies".  The definition Mark-Room applies throughout, because the boats are in the zone.  After both boats pass head to wind, rule 18 applies again, but rule 18.2, which is about Mark-Room, does not. That's because rule 18.3 applies.

18.3 cannot apply as neither vessel entered the zone on Starboard.

Rob, why doesn't 18.2c come in to play, since when yellow passes HTW  18.2a shuts off and when blue passes HTW both are on starboard tack and overlapped and the outside boat (blue) must give the inside boat mark room? What am I missing?

Rule 18.3 Tacking in the Zone begins with, "If a boat passes head to wind from port to starboard tack in the zone of a mark to be left to port, rule 18.2 does not apply between her and another boat on starboard tack that is fetching the mark." Yellow passes head to wind from port to starboard in the zone, and Blue is on starboard tack and fetching the mark, so rule 18.2 does not apply between them. Hence rule 18.2(c) does not apply between them. Alternatively, we can observe that the rule-18.3 conditions apply to Blue, so again, rule 18.2 does not apply between her and Yellow.

Thanks all for mooting this issue. I just wanted to make an observation: As an umpire, you will have one, perhaps two seconds, between positions 1 and 3 to condense the above comments or ascertain similar facts through the “fog of war”, apply the rules to those facts, and make a fair decision. That can’t be easy… 

 I feel much more sorry for any race boat's crew faced with this scenario.

Actually, I think it's pretty simple. When a boat tacks from port to starboard in the zone near the layline of a port-hand mark, rule 18.2 doesn't apply anymore. If she then causes a boat that has been on starboard tack since she entered the zone to sail above close hauled, then she needs to take a penalty, as has been true since 1997.  If the other boat goes between her and the mark, she must give that boat mark-room -- also since 1997.  Other than that, it's just like sailing on the open race course -- port/starboard, windward/leeward, tacking too close, etc. Much easier, in fact, to umpire than leeward mark roundings.

The problem is that in the 10-15 second period when rounding the mark, yellow goes from in total control of her destiny, to without rights (during her tack), then back to in total control again (once on Stbd tack).  And she is just sailing her normal, expected course to round the mark.  As a competitor, I find that to be not a good set of rules.  The rounding is only a few seconds duration and is often a very congested and contested area.  Passing the stand-on boat/give-way boat batons back and forth several times in that short time frame does not seem like a safe or desirable solution.  And it could be fixed by providing yellow the right to tack around the mark, with blue required to provide her room to do so.   But, maybe this makes for good TV viewing for people that care about that sort of thing.

If we could only run these races without competitors, life would be so much easier. Well said, Matthew...

On my web site for radio sailors, I described the scenario this way.

John

In this diagram, the boats entered the zone on port tack, overlapped and Yellow has mark room under 18.2(a) (1). Blue is ROW under R 11, and Yellow is staying clear.

 

As Yellow reaches the lay line, she luffs up, passes HTW to stbd, and begins to tack. As soon as Yellow passes HTW, her original mark room ends 18.2(b). Almost immediately, Blue also luffs up and passes HTW to stbd

 

Although neither boat has reached a close hauled course, Yellow is fetching the mark when Blue passes HTW,  so 18.3 applies and turns off 18.2 – so there in no mark room for either boat, and no exoneration under R 43.

 

One change in the new RRS is the removal of a phrase in the definition of Mark Room which covered this scenario. The phrase that was deleted is shown here with a strike out.

 

 

The deleted words allowed Yellow room to tack around the mark. Now we have a new puzzle. Both boats are subject to the rules of Part 2. As they are both tacking, R 13 applies. When two boats are tacking simultaneously, the one on the other’s port side keeps clear – so Yellow is the keep clear boat. If contact occurs, Yellow breaks R 13 however, as Blue alters course with ROW, R 16.1 applies and Blue must give room for Yellow to stay clear. Yellow may now be exonerated under R 43.1 as she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled, and Blue may be penalized. My message for Blue is to allow Yellow sufficient room to tack around the mark and not be too aggressive in following her. Even though the words were removed from the rules, I suggest to act as though they are still there.

I wholeheartedly agree with John's advice. The deleted words may change the game slightly, but as a practical matter I'm not sure we will ever notice. For one thing, if the boats have any amount of way on, they tend to follow their own track, so it's easy for an inside overlapped windward boat to tack without fouling the leeward boat. A second factor is that if the leeward boat luffs to interfere with a tack, she risks breaking rule 16.1, as everyone above his observed. Finally, it is never in the interests of the leeward boat to prevent the windward boat from tacking, since she will not be able to go around the mark until the windward boat does. 

When we think about how complex the rules are, take a look at the struck-out section of the definition "Mark-Room" in John's comment, above. That section had four different conditions that I can guarantee almost no sailor remembered, and was an exception to a general principle that mark-room did not include tacking!  Now mark-room still does not include tacking, without all those words and conditions. The 2025 rules are at least simpler by that amount.

Mark re: "18.3 cannot apply as neither vessel entered the zone on Starboard."

In the new 2025 18.3, that is an incorrect statement. 

Please see my comment from the previous 18.3 thread where I break it down step by step.  The description assumes 2 boats entering the zone overlapped on port tack and both tacking inside the zone (the same as the OP drawing in this thread). 

PS: it's so handy now that we can link to specific comments. As a reminder, just click the blue comment-ID-# in the right corner and that copies a link to that comment to your clipboard. 

Maybe I am the only one, but I have a different view from Rob's on this.  The recent rule change that John points out seems to me to be a significant mistake by the rule-making folks.  It unnecessarily injects uncertainty and complications into this particular racing scenario.

Matt re: "It unnecessarily injects uncertainty and complications into this particular racing scenario."

What uncertainly are you seeing?  Can you be more specific?

Uncertainty for the boat's skipper and crew.

Before, yellow was in control of her course around the mark and blue needed to keep clear, as I understand it.
Now, yellow is in control up until she tacks.  Then, when blue starts her tack, blue becomes ROW and yellow has no rights.  Where does yellow go to stay clear of blue?  She is now uncertain of what course to take.  Can blue drive yellow into the mark?  Yellow can stay clear by continuing to head off into the mark.    I am not imaginative enough to fully see how this might play out once the tactics are developed, but it does not feel like a situation that we want, especially in amateur, club racing.  Maybe ok in made for TV racing and Congressional Cup and the like.

The three questions that John Ball started out with are quick and easy to answer under the old rule.  Now, you saw by the discussion above that some of these questions are not as easy or quick to answer under the new rule.

My 2-cents.

I have to agree with Matthew. In my lowly opinion the extra verbiage in the old Mark Room definition is the way most of us have been playing the game for some time anyway, and it makes sense

Matt .. here is how I'd answer your points  ..

See the bold below.  Yellow has rights to MR up until she reaches HTW and then she is entitled to room under 16.1 as Blue alters course.  She certainly has rights. 

Yellow continues her turn after she passes HTW .. Blue has to give Yellow room to keep clear.

No. Yellows room under 16.1 includes space for her to meet her other obligations under Part 2 and RRS 31.  So as Blue alters course toward Yellow, the room Yellow is entitled to includes space not to touch the mark.

See above.

Ok.  I see it that way too, sometimes.
But, if blue has it out for yellow, blue can say yellow did not alter course fast enough.  Blue after all is ROW.  It is case 50 in a different guise - yellow has no chance.  So, it goes to the protest room to decide, which it would not under the old rule.

And then to continue on...  yellow finally turns onto starboard tack heading, and the ROW baton gets quickly passed back to yellow.  Hopefully yellow turned at exactly the right rate so yellow's stern does not pivot into blue.  And the adverse current does not sweep her into the mark while she is busy looking back at blue. The ROW transition will be a point of contention that is hard to sort out exactly in a protest room.  The ROW back and forth seems to add unnecessary confusion and points of contention when the old rule worked perfectly fine in this scenario.

Jeez... 16.1 is yellow's only defense?  Maybe that works in the world of umpires and judges, but I hate to say it, but it is not black and white enough for club racing.

So, the rule change does not seem to have many upsides in this scenario.  Maybe it helped some other rule situations.

Matt, every moment Blue alters course, Yellow gets new room to keep clear.

Importantly ... Blue's entire turn is not considered a single change of course, but rather a series of discrete but connected course-changes.

So each new segment of arc that Blue turns, generates new room entitlement for Yellow

As long as Yellow waits until she reaches the lay line to begin her tack, she should be in good shape to turn to HTW (Blue owes her MR for her stern to swing) and Yellow gets more and more room as Blue continues to turn, providing Yellow room to make it down to close-hauled, where she becomes ROW boat.