Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Scoring TLE

Thomas OConor
Nationality: United States
The SIs guide says this:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window."
That's simple enough. My question is whether OCS boats who meet the requirements in the definition of "finish" and finished within the Finishing Window should be counted when allocating points for boats that are TLE. 
It seems to be common sense that you have to start in order to finish, but nowhere in the definition of "finish" does it state that you have to start properly.
Thanks for considering.
Tom O'Conor
Created: Yesterday 12:43

Comments

P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
1
Appendix LG is still in 2021 version.

'finish'' should probably be replaced with 'sailed the course and finished'. 
Created: Yesterday 13:23
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Would be interested to know who uses TLE instead of DNF. It’s not a scoring abbreviation available in App A. So while it exists in the SI Guide, is it cited anywhere else?
Created: Yesterday 13:59
David Nieman
Nationality: South Africa
0
A boat that is OCS has not met the definition of Start.
Created: Yesterday 14:18
P
Peter van Muyden
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
John, it still creates an undesirable situation if the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window 'sailed the course and finished', but was DSQ-ed.  Q&A 6 months ago I created a regarding this, but at the time they wouldn't answer due to this situation.  TLE is not part of the rules and it is better not to use it.  I would not be surprised if TLE is removed from the updated SI template.
Created: Yesterday 14:23
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
-1
You wouldn't be scored finished or TLE if you were OCS.  You can only finish after starting...  Now if you failed to sail the course possibly that RC might not be able to apply that penalty and say you didn't "finish" as well (NSC) 
Created: Yesterday 14:25
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
There's at least one long thread on the subject of how thorny a TLE can be when scoring a series, especially if it's a large fraction of the fleet.  The 1 or 2 boats more than finishers it might give everyone who sailed a 5th place, and anyone who missed the start a 40th place! 
Created: Yesterday 14:30
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
1
Craig, in series over a span of weeks, the DNC is often based in the # of starters for that race.   That takes care of that problem. 

  • 20 boats entered. 
  • 10 show up and start
  • 5 finish

The TLE's get 6. The DNC's get 11. 
Created: Yesterday 15:08
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
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  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
"Craig, in series over a span of weeks, the DNC is often based in the # of starters for that race.   That takes care of that problem. 

  • 20 boats entered. 
  • 10 show up and start
  • 5 finish

The TLE's get 6. The DNC's get 11. "

Add, only if A5.3 is invoked by the NOR or Sis.
Created: Yesterday 15:12
P
Peter van Muyden
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Here is another example

  1. 50 boats registered 
  2. In races 1-3 boat Alpha finishes in 1st place. 
  3. In race 4 boat Alpha is in 2nd place and notices that boat Bravo, who is ahead of him, is in danger.
  4. as per the RRS boat Alpha helps boat Bravo who eventually retires.
  5. Boat Alpha continues on and is the last boat to finish within the finishing window
  6. 10 boats failed to finish within the finishing window
  7. Boat Alpha requests and receives redress for race 4 of average point of races 1-3;  1 point
  8. The ten TLE boats will receive, as per the current instruction, a score of 2 or 3 points in race 4. This comprises 1 point for Alpha's score (points for the last boat to finish within the finish window), plus 1 or 2 points. 
Created: Yesterday 15:19
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Jerry re:"only if A5.3 is invoked by the NOR or Sis."

Yea ... that's one way. Very often I see SI's where they skip A5.3 and roll their own custom one. 
Created: Yesterday 15:34
Thomas OConor
Nationality: United States
0
Interesting comments- thanks.
In answer to David Nieman: "A boat that is OCS has not met the definition of Start."
and
Craig Priniski: "You wouldn't be scored finished or TLE if you were OCS.  You can only finish after starting... "
Though common sense indicates that you cannot "finish" without "starting", the definition of "finish" in the RRS makes no mention of starting, and "finish" is the term used in the SIs Guide for scoring TLE and so wouldn't OCS boats would meet the definition of "finish" for TLE scoring?
Perhaps "start" should be added to the term "finish" in the  RRS definitions?
Created: Yesterday 16:54
P
Peter van Muyden
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Thomas,  start was removed from the definition of finish in the 2025-2028 rule book.  This was to allow for alternative OCS penalties.  e.g. In the Sydney-Hobart race you would not want a 100 foot OCS sled to restart.

The start requirement is now part of the Sail the Course definition which is invoked by RRS 28
Created: Yesterday 17:38
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States
0
Try this: "A boat scored TLE shall be scored [one][two] points more than the last place boat scored as finishing within the Finishing Window."

  • OCS boats are not scored as finishing.
  • Alpha, granted redress of 1st place, may have been the last boat to finish, but she is not the last place boat scored as finishing.

Note: I would also add "... but not worse than last place among the race starters."  That way, if only one boat out of all starters is TLE, they are still scored 1 point better than DNS, DSQ, etc.
Created: Yesterday 17:53
Thomas OConor
Nationality: United States
0
Thanks all. This has been helpful.
Created: Yesterday 18:09
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
'sailed the course and finished'  is partially redundant.
'sailed the course" is sufficient. 
Created: Yesterday 18:49
Bill Stump
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
0 
‘TLE’ is not a defined scoring term in RRS.  The SI and NoR guides are not rules.  So, the ‘TLE’ scoring penalty is whatever your SI state it to be and how it is to be calculated.  In large dinghy fleets, like Optis, we often use finishers ++.  In other fleets, starters (not entrants) ++ is more appropriate.  That said, a boat has to ‘sail the course’, RRS 28.1, which is defined and includes ‘starting’, also defined.  So, the OCS boat has not ‘started’, thus will not have ‘sailed the course’, and should not be counted as a ‘finisher’ even though she may have crossed the finish line.  Cheers.
Created: Yesterday 18:53
P
Niko Kotsatos
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
Some have suggested that TLE can be too big a benefit for some boats when only a small portion of the fleet finishes. One could instead use the following definition, which keeps approximately the same total points awarded in the race:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points equal to F + X where...
  • F is boats that sailed the course and finished the within the Finishing Window
  • and X is (Starters - F) / 2"

An adjustment is needed for systems other than low point scoring.
Created: Yesterday 20:14
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Philip 'sailed the course and finished'  is partially redundant.
'sailed the course" is sufficient. 

I don't think so.

'... sailed the course within the Finishing Window', with the 2025  Definition Sail the Course  would mean

'started, sails around the course, and finished'

So a boat would have to sail the whole race within the 20 minutes or whatever is allowed in the Finishing Window.
Created: Yesterday 22:02
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Per the original posting:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that SAILED THE COURSE within the Finishing Window."
Created: Today 00:35
Thomas OConor
Nationality: United States
0
OK, to try to wrap this up:
The suggested language in the 2021-24 SIs Guide (new one is not yet published) for scoring TLE is:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window."
Since the 2025-28 definition of finish no longer includes the term start, the new definition would qualify OCS boats as finishers wrt the TLE wording.
Taking into account all the comments above, I believe the following wording for TLE scoring would work:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that sailed the course and finished within the Finishing Window and is not otherwise penalized."
The fairness of using TLE is fodder for another forum.😊


Created: Today 04:02
David Nieman
Nationality: South Africa
0
Back to your original question, if a boat is OCS and thus hasnt met the definition of start, that boat doesn't meet the definition of "Sailed the Course" either so doesn't have a race to finish. That boat has technically not sailed the race, and should not be counted for applying TLE to other boats.
Created: Today 07:04
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Thomas and John,
"...points scored by the last boat that sailed the course and finished within the Finishing Window..."
means:
"...points scored by the last boat that 1. started, 2. (string touched each mark), and 3. finished and finished within the Finishing Window..."
What is the purpose of the second "and finished?"
Created: Today 07:44
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