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Please consider 2 versions of essentially the same situation. The first is a regular Mark and the second is a Gate Mark. In the first, the inside boat is sailing within the corridor of Mark Room under the prevailing conditions. She luffs aggressively, staying inside her Mark Room corridor and hits the outside boat. In the second, the inside boat is sailing within the corridor of Mark Room under the prevailing conditions for the starboard rounding Gate Mark. She luffs aggressively, staying inside her Mark Room corridor for that Mark but then sails to the port rounding Gate Mark. In each situation, she has infringed R16.1. R14 doesn't apply since there was no damage (i.e. exoneration). R 17 doesn't apply since outside boat gained overlap from Clear Astern. Port rounding Gate Mark is further away than shown. Consider the boats to be RC yachts. The question - Will the inside boat be exonerated per R43.1(b)
In situation 1, Cyan luffs Magenta in order to sail to the mark and round it on the required side. In situation 2, Blue luffs Green mostly after passing the mark and definitely leaves the corridor by position 4. Furthermore, by position 4, mark-room has been given if she intends to instead round the port gate. At position 4, she is only leeward boat (not inside any longer), and is fully restricted by 16.1 and soon to be restricted by 18 as the outside boat
I would exonerate Cyan by 43.1b & c. I would not exonerate Blue by 43.1b.
Side note, I'm no expert, but I don't instinctively agree with the drawn mark-room corridor. I would draw it something like this at position 1. And that corridor would change slightly (get closer to Cyan) as she continued to sail low. Still, I agree that at position 5, when the contact occurs, she is well within her corridor. image.png417 KB
I could not find these r numbers so cannot comment. On the diagrams. In the first no problem the boat has mark room and is exonerated. I agree slightly about the corridor, but when out of the corridor the row boat breaks no rules. When it luffs I'd does so to pass close to the mark so is immediately within mark room where exoneration is avaliable. In the second situation I do not see blue getting exonerated. As soon as she turns away from the mark, she is outside her corridor and thus there is no exoneration if 16.1 is broken. Incidentally this brings another point into ply. Ws love proper course and the boat here is traveling to the other mark. As her proper course is not too sail close to this mark, she has no mark room to sail to it (as row not a problem) she only has room to pass and leave astern. This may mean if she luffs earlier she would not be exonerated.
I am not aware of any "outer limits' in the rules (18) or Definitions. If you take out the Purple in scenario #1, L Blue is sailing how she would/could in the absence of Purple. What should happen is a conversation between the boats as they approach and as they enter the Zone. L Blue should be telling Purple that she will need more room to sail to the mark and to round it. That much should be obvious to Purple and adjust her course to leave room for L Blue to round. Makes for much better time at the bar after the race.
In scenario # 2, all I can say is: "what was Blue thinking of?" (Reminds me of some drivers on our freeways. I want to go there, so I am going). Kim
I think the 'R' numbers are not references to Appendix R but to the RRS rule number, i.e. R16.1 is rule 16.1. Other than the zone being 4 boats lengths instead of 3, this situation would be the same for 'big' and 'small' boat racing.
I think we need to be careful about the concept of a 'corridor' and applying it too literally. Mark-room is the room to sail to the mark and around it. If you are not sailing 'to the mark' or 'around it' then you are not sailing in the 'corridor' and you are not entitled to the exoneration that comes with mark-room. The 'corridor' starts where ever the boat is at each point in time and it represents the path that the boat would follow to sail directly to the mark from that spot and then around it. The 'corridor' is not a static thing created when a boat enters the zone, it is constantly changing depending on where the boat is in the zone.
In situation 1, it can be argued that Turquoise is not sailing 'to the mark' in positions 2, 3, & 4 as her course is not one where she will pass the mark on the required side. Therefore, Turquoise is not entitled to the exoneration that comes with the entitlement to mark-room. But as a right-of-way leeward boat, she really doesn't need it. In position 5 she is certainly sailing 'to the mark' to then go 'around it' and is exonerated by rule 43.1(b) if she breaks rule 16.1. Magenta is required to keep clear by rule 11 and to give mark-room by rule 18.2(a).
In situation 2, at position 4 Blue is not sailing to or around mark 1 of the gate so is not eligible to the exoneration that comes from sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to. Green is still a windward boat required to keep clear by rule 11 but is unable to because Blue does not give her the room needed to continue keeping clear when Blue changes course. Blue breaks rule 16.1 and Green is exonerated by rule 43.1(b). Blue could make the argument that she belatedly decided to go around mark 2 of the gate, but she is likely outside the zone of that mark and would be the outside boat required to give Green mark-room. Not a winning argument.
Assuming these are two similar boats, or one-designs, I'm having a hard time seeing how rule 16.1 was violated. The reason being, in both scenarios, the leeward boat's pivot point (aka center of lateral resistance) is in front of the windward boat's. Therefore, the windward boat should be able to keep clear by luffing at the same time the leeward boat luffs.
Rule 16.1 often comes into play when the windward boat's pivot point is ahead of that of a leeward boat that luffs with a small amount of gauge (say, 1/3 a boatlength or less), and luffing will therefore lead her stern to contact the leeward boat. However, that is not the case here.
The OP says that the luff was 'aggressive'. That would be more than enough to convince me that rule 16.1 is an issue regardless of the size of boats unless they were going very slowly. The speed that the boats are going is more of an issue than the turning characteristics or type of boat. Also, in RC boats things are happening at a distance where it is harder to see changes in course adding more to the probability that rule 16.1 was broken.
John, I’m curious as to why time to respond (as implied by use of the word “aggressive”) is relevant here, since rule 16.1 only requires a right of way to give ROOM to keep clear, not time to keep clear. 16.1 makes no mention of time. Is there something in the model boat rules, or a case that indicates that time comes into play?
This timefeature is very interesting and requires consideration. Room looks like space but space can be removed very quickly by a suddern manoeuvre. Link this with manouvering promptle iin a seamanlike way and i believe there is an element of time introduced in the room concept
Case N°2 I see it this way: Green must give Blue her MARK ROOM as indicated in rule 18.2(a)1 The question is HOW MUCH ROOM?.....and that's what the DEFINITION Mark Room:
I think the issue is point (a) (a) to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it,
Can blue go to buoy N°. 2?.....yes, but if Green protests, blue will have to justify why her PC is toward the other mark... due to current, wind shift, or a badly anchored buoy...
I don't think Blue would have to justify anything about her proper course if she suddenly decided to go to mark 2. There is no requirement that Blue be sailing her proper course, just as there is no requirement that she round the 'best' mark of a gate. And she is still outside the zone of that mark, so that the concept of mark-room doesn't even apply yet.
I think it is unfortunate that the rule writers used the term 'proper course' here as people seem to want to inject that somehow the boat is allowed to sail her proper course or that she is required to sail it. They would have been better off incorporating something like the string rule where her string would have to touch the mark to sail the course.
In situation 1, Cyan luffs Magenta in order to sail to the mark and round it on the required side.
In situation 2, Blue luffs Green mostly after passing the mark and definitely leaves the corridor by position 4. Furthermore, by position 4, mark-room has been given if she intends to instead round the port gate. At position 4, she is only leeward boat (not inside any longer), and is fully restricted by 16.1 and soon to be restricted by 18 as the outside boat
I would exonerate Cyan by 43.1b & c.
I would not exonerate Blue by 43.1b.
Side note, I'm no expert, but I don't instinctively agree with the drawn mark-room corridor. I would draw it something like this at position 1. And that corridor would change slightly (get closer to Cyan) as she continued to sail low. Still, I agree that at position 5, when the contact occurs, she is well within her corridor.
On the diagrams.
In the first no problem the boat has mark room and is exonerated.
I agree slightly about the corridor, but when out of the corridor the row boat breaks no rules. When it luffs I'd does so to pass close to the mark so is immediately within mark room where exoneration is avaliable.
In the second situation I do not see blue getting exonerated. As soon as she turns away from the mark, she is outside her corridor and thus there is no exoneration if 16.1 is broken.
Incidentally this brings another point into ply. Ws love proper course and the boat here is traveling to the other mark. As her proper course is not too sail close to this mark, she has no mark room to sail to it (as row not a problem) she only has room to pass and leave astern. This may mean if she luffs earlier she would not be exonerated.
If you take out the Purple in scenario #1, L Blue is sailing how she would/could in the absence of Purple.
What should happen is a conversation between the boats as they approach and as they enter the Zone.
L Blue should be telling Purple that she will need more room to sail to the mark and to round it. That much should be obvious to Purple and adjust her course to leave room for L Blue to round. Makes for much better time at the bar after the race.
In scenario # 2, all I can say is: "what was Blue thinking of?" (Reminds me of some drivers on our freeways. I want to go there, so I am going).
Kim
I think we need to be careful about the concept of a 'corridor' and applying it too literally. Mark-room is the room to sail to the mark and around it. If you are not sailing 'to the mark' or 'around it' then you are not sailing in the 'corridor' and you are not entitled to the exoneration that comes with mark-room. The 'corridor' starts where ever the boat is at each point in time and it represents the path that the boat would follow to sail directly to the mark from that spot and then around it. The 'corridor' is not a static thing created when a boat enters the zone, it is constantly changing depending on where the boat is in the zone.
In situation 1, it can be argued that Turquoise is not sailing 'to the mark' in positions 2, 3, & 4 as her course is not one where she will pass the mark on the required side. Therefore, Turquoise is not entitled to the exoneration that comes with the entitlement to mark-room. But as a right-of-way leeward boat, she really doesn't need it. In position 5 she is certainly sailing 'to the mark' to then go 'around it' and is exonerated by rule 43.1(b) if she breaks rule 16.1. Magenta is required to keep clear by rule 11 and to give mark-room by rule 18.2(a).
In situation 2, at position 4 Blue is not sailing to or around mark 1 of the gate so is not eligible to the exoneration that comes from sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to. Green is still a windward boat required to keep clear by rule 11 but is unable to because Blue does not give her the room needed to continue keeping clear when Blue changes course. Blue breaks rule 16.1 and Green is exonerated by rule 43.1(b). Blue could make the argument that she belatedly decided to go around mark 2 of the gate, but she is likely outside the zone of that mark and would be the outside boat required to give Green mark-room. Not a winning argument.
Rule 16.1 often comes into play when the windward boat's pivot point is ahead of that of a leeward boat that luffs with a small amount of gauge (say, 1/3 a boatlength or less), and luffing will therefore lead her stern to contact the leeward boat. However, that is not the case here.
Am I missing something?
OP says these are RC yachts, which I've never sailed, so I took OP's word for it.
Better to describe it in time ... "abruptly", "quickly", "at the last second" ...
Room looks like space but space can be removed very quickly by a suddern manoeuvre.
Link this with manouvering promptle iin a seamanlike way and i believe there is an element of time introduced in the room concept
Case N°2 I see it this way:
Green must give Blue her MARK ROOM as indicated in rule 18.2(a)1
The question is HOW MUCH ROOM?.....and that's what the DEFINITION Mark Room:
I think the issue is point (a)
(a) to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it,
Can blue go to buoy N°. 2?.....yes, but if Green protests, blue will have to justify why her PC is toward the other mark... due to current, wind shift, or a badly anchored buoy...
I think it is unfortunate that the rule writers used the term 'proper course' here as people seem to want to inject that somehow the boat is allowed to sail her proper course or that she is required to sail it. They would have been better off incorporating something like the string rule where her string would have to touch the mark to sail the course.