Forum: Race Committee & Race Management

Series scoring with entries that did not sail

David Arty
Nationality: United States
I have a question that came up from another competitor at the end of our 10 race spring series. The competitor (A) did not make the first two races and was scored DNC. Our SI’s state that “A boat that did not come to the starting area (DNC) shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series.”

Another competitor (B) registered just before race 9. Both race 9 and 10 were abandoned for weather, so she did not sail any races in the series. 

Competitor A asserts that since B did not register until race 9, and did not sail any races in the series, A’s DNC’s in races 1-2 should be scored based on the number of boats excluding B. This would improve his place in the series by 1 position. 

My read is that B met the conditions of entry, so although she did not compete in any races she counts as an entry. Rule A2.2 states that “If a boat has entered any race in a series, she shall be scored for the whole series”, which I take to mean that all DNC’s count as if she was there the whole time. Am I missing anything that would actually result in A being scored better?
Created: Yesterday 22:05

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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
That's an interesting question. I would interpret "entered" in the series being the number that existed at the moment the race to be scored DNC started and should not dynamically change as the weeks go by. 

At the time of the start of race 1,  how many were entered? Then the same for race 2.  If others enter later ... it should not change race 1 and 2 (that's how I would do it). 

But ... JMO ... for a series that spreads over weeks ... where you have late entires and people not showing up for all the races ... it seems to me fairer to score DNC based on the number of starters or the number of finishers ... not the number of entries. Either one of those approaches handles that situation automatically. 
Created: Yesterday 22:10
David Arty
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 17734
Scoring dynamically would definitely be more inconvenient as it’s not what Regatta Network does when you say to score “Registrants + 1”, but you make a good point that the scoring is technically applied at race time and maybe shouldn’t change. 

I think the idea of our SI’s was to benefit a boat that gave a good effort to race and DNF’d because of dying evening wind, over a boat that didn’t show. But you’re right that it adds some other complications and issues of its own. 
Created: Yesterday 22:17
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Michael Butterfield
I think as the enrty was valid, and the boat would have sailed had the races been held it should be counted.
I contrast this with entries before an event when the boats do not turn up to sail when they should be discounted. 
Created: Yesterday 22:21
Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
50
Tips
It seems that when race(s) 1 & 2 (and for that matter 3 - 8) were scored the number of entries for the series was "X-1" and the DNC for race 1 & 2 should reflect that. When races 9 & 10 were scored the number of entries was "X" and had those races not been abandoned would have been scored as such. 
You are essentially going back and rescoring races 1-8 as a result of an entry in race #9 as directed by RRS A2.2 so that seems to be correct, even though it doesn't seem fair.
Created: Yesterday 22:37
Wayne Balsiger
Nationality: United States
For the future, you may want to look at the US Sailing comments on scoring a Long Series.  This is noted at the end of Appendix A.  Go to ussailing.org/rules and select 'Scoring a Long Series'.

My club uses DNC = number of finisher plus 2.  DNS = number of finishers plus 1.
Created: Today 03:07
Jim Champ
All scoring systems are imperfect, all we can do is apply the rules as written. Electronic systems I've seen treat all interim results as provisional, and any score may change, letter scores particularly. This has the advantage that in the end all DNCs have the same points, which would seem more logical than DNC points changing if more boats enter as the series progresses or varying in races with different numbers of starters. 

If you consider a club series in which boats enter the series by signing on for a race then one might have to score 5 entries and no DNCs for race 1, 20 entries  and 5 DNCs for race 10, and 5 entries and 25 DNCs for race 20, which with low point scoring would be ridiculous! 

I think if a boat enters a series according to club rules/procedures then she must be scored DNC for all races even if she never actually launches. If the club wishes to say only give DNC scores to boats who have come to the starting area in at least one completed race then they need to write that into the SIs/NOR. 

So seems to me the boat was correctly scored. 
Created: Today 04:53
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
David, Are you saying that your NOR did NOT  state a date and time for entries to close before the B's entry for Race 9 was received?
Created: Today 04:59
David Arty
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 17740
That is correct - the NOR doesn’t place any limit on registration time.

We have a spring and summer series, with one entry covering both. Sometimes late launchers will join late in the spring knowing they won’t score well there, with the intention of sailing more in the summer. 
Created: Today 10:00
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
David re: "That is correct - the NOR doesn’t place any limit on registration time. We have a spring and summer series, with one entry covering both .."

You really need to get them to change the NOR/SI's. 

Here is the language ... 

NOR/SI #.# The first sentence of RRS Appendix A5.2 is deleted and replaced by: “A boat that did not come to the starting area, did not start, did not sail the course, did not finish, retired, was TLE, or was disqualified shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats that finished.”

Created: Today 13:21
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 17744
PS ... this has the added benefit of not overly penalizing people who don't show up when a lot of other boats decide not to show up at the same time.   

This helps prevent what I call "the game of chicken" .. when people feel the need to go out and compete when conditions might be on the edge.   You have 20 boats signed up and it's predicted for 20g25 with rain ... let's say 5/20 boats decide to race that one .. then you have the weird scoring of 1,2,3,4,5, 21, 21 ... . 

That puts pressure on peope to go out in conditions that they might otherwise not. 

The above SI/NOR language IMO is MUCH more appropriate for 1/week series that stretch over a season. 

I've also seen for those series a difference for DNC/DNS and TLE, DNF .. making TLE/DNF/NSC finishers+1 and DNC/DNS starters+1 or finishers+2 .. thus giving some benefit for coming out and starting vs those who never showed up. 
Created: Today 13:34
Kirsteen Donaldson
We have series that run over a number of weekends through the season.  It is not unusual for boats to choose to do only selected races in the series, and so the closing date is defined for entry to individual races.  In the end, the latest entry date is 1 week before the final race in the series.  The RRS are clear (A2.2) that 'if a boat has entered any race in a series, she shall be scored for the whole series'.  'Entering' is not defined, but I argue if a boat has completed the entry process including signing the risk statement and declaration and paying the appropriate fee, then she has entered.  So, in the example above, Boat B is just as valid an entry as Boat A and the scoring seems to be in accordance with the RRS.  

I agree that DNC points should be the same for all boats - why should a boat that for any reason does not compete in Race 1 score fewer DNC points than another boat that did not compete in Race 8?   However, I do agree that it seems unfair for a boat that did not compete at all should influence the results of boats that did, so we amend A2.2 by saying 'To be eligible for a series score, a boat must rank as a starter for at least 1 race in the series. This changes RRS A2.2.' 

Angelo expressed concern about boats feeling obliged to go out in what they consider marginal conditions to avoid DNC points; however, that, and other very valid reasons for not competing in individual races (daughter's wedding, illness, etc) is addressed by allowing a reasonable (but not excessive) number of discards (x races to count).  (We also specify that RRS A5.3 applies, so a boat concerned about competing in the conditions could play the rules by motoring to the starting area, lurking for long enough to rank as a starter, or cross the starting line and retiring, and score DNS of DNF points in preference to DNC points.) 

Most organising authorities and boats accept that DNC points will increase during a series.  However, in the past I've seen an OA get round that by thinking of a number bigger than the likely number of competitors and pre-specifying that as the DNC points, but that seems a big penalty to those boats that need to count DNC points.  I have also seen OAs just put 'DNC' in the individual race results and only assign points at the end of the series, when they know what they will be.  


Created: Today 15:31
Tom Sollas
Our club has similar series; spring series, summer series and fall series. We do allow people to register "mid-series" if they wish (we also allow daily registrations which is another whole rabbit hole). We do also specify A5.3. That said, if a boat enters mid series, we will retroactively score them DNC for any previous races. This does also obviously does retroactively change the scores for any other boats previously scored DNC. That said, we consider the scores of each week of the series provisional until the end of the series. For us, to my recollection, I haven't seen this be an issue. We're using clubspot for our scoring program these days.

Edit to add: I race in another area series where A5.2 and A5.3 are modified such that a DNC is the same as a DNS. I'm not a fan personally, as if you miss a week of that series, the actual penalty is based on who actually showed up vs the number of entrants.
Created: Today 15:44
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