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I have been in the same situation. The answer is B did not have inside rights, but A needed to close the door and not allow B inside. A did not have the right to tack on B, even though B should not have been there. A should have protested B.
As the boats tacked 18 would be off and if neirher down to clossehaulled the they are tacking at the same time so the boat on the right is in the right.
In Diag A, boat A with mark room has not yet passed the mark nor left is astern, so 18.2 still applies and A has mark room. The diagram does not go far enough to see what happens next so it is not shown to determine if B breaks R 18.2.
In Diag B, boat A luffed up as she is entitled to do with ROW R 11 and mark room, and Boat B also began to stay clear by luffing - then Boat A passed HTW, turning off 18.2. . After A passes HTW, B also passes HTW in an attempt to stay clear. A breaks R 13. B breaks second part of R 13 but is exonerated under R 43 as she was not given room to stay clear.
As the boats were rounding a leeward mark R 18.3 does not apply, They were starting the next leg which is a beat to the next mark which is to windward.
My reasoning is based on the comments in Scenario 3 of the Appeal 130, and in Case 118.
There is also a case where a boat on stbd is reaching into the windward mark, and the comment says that it is still a beat, and the boat has overstood the mark. I see your example in diag 5 as just the reverse and apply that same logic. Boat A is rounding a leeward mark but has sailed deep.
The conditions for rrs 18.3 seem to apply Mark to port Both boats tack in the zone One is fetching the mark, Is so no 18.2 and back to simultaneously tacking. Overstaying the windward mark is a different matter. If boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward 18 does not apply. So for overstanding boats we have the next paragraphbetween boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack..
Mike .. I agree with 18.3. I think the initial hesitation to apply 18.3 in this situation might stem from a more situational notion of what "fetching" means (and the 2017 wording of 18.3).
Though both RRS18.3 and "fetching" have common understanding that they are applied at a windward mark, there is nothing in their definitions which limit them such.
As far as RRS 18.3, we have had 2+ threads talking about how the rule has changed when both boats tack inside the zone. Here is my detailed comment from one of those threads. The bottom line is that when both boats tack inside the zone, neither boat gets MR if 18.3 applies.
Also, [with the new 2025 wording] there is nothing in 18.3 which limits its application to windward marks. However a boat does need to be fetching the mark on starboard, so let's look at "fetching".
Fetching is a defined term and is italicized in 18.3.
Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.
Seems to me that my scenarios #2 and #3 both boats will be fetching the mark after they pass HTW.
Ang, It is tricky to apply your scenarios without drawings of the rest of the scenario. In all three cases, RRS 18.3 will eventually turn off RRS 18.2. It seems there are issues before this point that are pretty clearly covered in US Appeal 130, so I will ignore them. I don't think the inside boat ever acquires mark-room, however, it would be leeward boat. Furthermore, inside boat should choose to tack once they are fetching, so mark-room would be irrelevant. I'm not sure I get the issue you're proposing.
Lastly, the RC should try to avoid setting a course where the course would hairpin back across itself at a mark. In your modified diagram 5, this should have been a starboard rounding, and it would avoid the issue entirely. I still see situations where this could happen (a beam reach approach) but at least that removes the additional challenge of more boats from other legs in the mix. Should make solving any scenario easy based on the tail end of 18.2, RRS13, and RRS 11. I think it's fine that 18.3 turns off 18.2.
A is not fetching the mark. Even if B wasn't there she would not be fetching.
If the first boat to pass head to wind isn't fetching, then RRS 18.3 will not apply and, from the instant the second boat to tack passes head to wind NRrs 18.2(c) will.
Except that if boats are close together as in Diagram 5, the outside boat, having just passed head to wind close aboard the inside boat, from the time the second boat passed head to wind, may not be able to give mark room and in accordance with RRS 18.2(d) is not required to.
take another look at Diagram 5.
A is not fetching the mark. Even if B wasn't there she would not be fetching.
John .. yes .. as drawn in Dia 5 - mod, the inside boat is not fetching the mark. It's the 2nd and 3rd scenarios where there is more space that is the question.
If so or not, why or why not?
In Diag B, boat A luffed up as she is entitled to do with ROW R 11 and mark room, and Boat B also began to stay clear by luffing - then Boat A passed HTW, turning off 18.2. . After A passes HTW, B also passes HTW in an attempt to stay clear. A breaks R 13. B breaks second part of R 13 but is exonerated under R 43 as she was not given room to stay clear.
As the boats were rounding a leeward mark R 18.3 does not apply, They were starting the next leg which is a beat to the next mark which is to windward.
John
Why?
Also, I've given 3 scenarios ... Modofied Diagram 5 and 2 mods on that.
There is also a case where a boat on stbd is reaching into the windward mark, and the comment says that it is still a beat, and the boat has overstood the mark. I see your example in diag 5 as just the reverse and apply that same logic. Boat A is rounding a leeward mark but has sailed deep.
John
Mark to port
Both boats tack in the zone
One is fetching the mark,
Is so no 18.2 and back to simultaneously tacking.
Overstaying the windward mark is a different matter.
If boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward 18 does not apply.
So for overstanding boats we have the next paragraphbetween boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack..
Though both RRS18.3 and "fetching" have common understanding that they are applied at a windward mark, there is nothing in their definitions which limit them such.
As far as RRS 18.3, we have had 2+ threads talking about how the rule has changed when both boats tack inside the zone. Here is my detailed comment from one of those threads. The bottom line is that when both boats tack inside the zone, neither boat gets MR if 18.3 applies.
Also, [with the new 2025 wording] there is nothing in 18.3 which limits its application to windward marks. However a boat does need to be fetching the mark on starboard, so let's look at "fetching".
Fetching is a defined term and is italicized in 18.3.
When the leeward mark is to be left to starboard, 18.3 doesn't apply and the inside boat can acquire mark room.
So in point-to-point govt mark courses where these course geometries are more likely ... this is going to be confusing to competitors.
Maybe 18.3 needs to be changed to limit its application to windward marks.
Lastly, the RC should try to avoid setting a course where the course would hairpin back across itself at a mark. In your modified diagram 5, this should have been a starboard rounding, and it would avoid the issue entirely. I still see situations where this could happen (a beam reach approach) but at least that removes the additional challenge of more boats from other legs in the mix. Should make solving any scenario easy based on the tail end of 18.2, RRS13, and RRS 11. I think it's fine that 18.3 turns off 18.2.
A is not fetching the mark. Even if B wasn't there she would not be fetching.
If the first boat to pass head to wind isn't fetching, then RRS 18.3 will not apply and, from the instant the second boat to tack passes head to wind NRrs 18.2(c) will.
Except that if boats are close together as in Diagram 5, the outside boat, having just passed head to wind close aboard the inside boat, from the time the second boat passed head to wind, may not be able to give mark room and in accordance with RRS 18.2(d) is not required to.
I'll draw them and let's have a look.