Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Case 89 - What about water bottles on lifelines?

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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
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Case 89 is short and to the point .. but to be honest .. it's a case that I didn't take notice of until today.

Case 89 talks about attaching a drinking container to a crew's body.  In my experience, it's pretty common for crew on larger boats with double lifelines on hot days to hang water bottles by a carabiner to a lifeline.

Reading this case, is that this is against the rules as well?

Comments? 
Created: Fri 15:43

Comments

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Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
I do not see how Case 89 in any way restricts a boat from hanging a "water bottle by a carabiner to a lifeline". It specifically addresses the use of items such as Camelbacks that are worn.
There is no doubt that there is a point when a "water bottle" is no longer a water bottle and is being used as movable ballast (assuming being moved from one side of the boat to another), but a personal beverage I feel falls well short of that definition.
Created: Fri 15:59
Al Sargent
Nationality: United States
Seems like what a person could drink during their time on the rail / watch period, would be a reasonable upper limit for the amount of water. Consuming more than 1 liter per hour can lead to water intoxication, so for a four hour shift on the rail, you'd want less than four liters per person.
Created: Fri 16:14
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
I just think this is oddly and overly broadly written.  IMO .. they should have put a limit on the quantity and allowed it.  Make it "no more than 12oz/16oz carried by the individual, either by attachment to their person or carried with them".

I'd think we'd want to encourage people to keep hydrated for safety.
Created: Fri 16:20
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Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
12oz/16oz!

Half the world won't know what you're on about! 

RRS 51 is all that's needed here. 
Created: Fri 17:40
Tim O'Connor
RRS 50.3: 50.1 and 50.2 don’t apply to boats with lifelines. 

Therefore, Case 89, which is based on 50.1 (a) is irrelevant to boats with lifelines, so you can festoon them to your heart’s desire. 

The offshore rules at 3.14 provide for specs of weight and construction of lifelines that make the weight of the functional amount of water you could attach by way of bottles pretty de minimis compared to the lifelines themselves, to be honest. 
Created: Fri 17:02
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Angelo Guarino
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Tim re:"RRS 50.3: 50.1 and 50.2 don’t apply to boats with lifelines. "

That is not correct.  50.2 states that 50.1(b) and (c) don't apply to boats with LL's.  

Case 89 is about 50.1(a), which does apply. 
Created: Fri 17:30
Tim O'Connor
Fair, and you’re correct. 

However, 50.1 (a) is “wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purposes of increasing their weight”.

A bottle clipped to a lifeline is not worn; it is not carried; it is not clothing, and I don’t think it’s equipment; and it is not for the purposes of increasing their weight, that is, the weight of the person neither carrying nor wearing it. 

So, how can 50.1 (a) apply, given a bottle clipped to a lifeline is outside what the rule covers? And, if 50.1 (a) doesn’t then apply, what is the issue with people having bottles?
Created: Fri 17:44
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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
Tim re: "However, 50.1 (a) is “wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purposes of increasing their weight”.

Correct .. but did you read the Case 89?

This is the answer .. 

Question
Does rule 50.1(a) permit a competitor to wear or otherwise attach to his person a beverage container while racing?

Answer
No. Except on a windsurfer or a kiteboard, there is no necessity for such a practice, and therefore its primary purpose must be considered to be to increase the competitor's weight.

  1. I think that is an amazingly overly broad conclusion .. that there is no necessity to carry even a small amount of drinking water with/on you and that "... therefore its primary purpose must be considered to be to increase the competitor's weight."
    1. Really .. therefore it must be considered?? IMHO .. what I highlighted in bold above is a flawed overly-broad assertion/conclusion.
  2. The reason I asked about the lifelines is what is the difference between a crew carrying a water bottle from side to side of the boat with them and attaching it to the lifeline and a water bottle attached to a harness?  It's the same amount of weight moving from side to side (which is why I asked the Q).

Again .. this is the first time I've actually thought about Case 89.  If the issue was not allowing crew to add weight to themselves, then simply put a volume-limit on it.

As it is written now .. there is no amount of water that is allowed.
Created: Fri 17:56
Tim O'Connor
On 2, the difference is, surely: it’s not part of the definition for the application of the Rule, so the Rule does not apply. 
Created: Fri 18:03
John Mooney
Nationality: United States
Angelo, you may be right (I haven’t looked carefully at the case), but there’s a practical limitation here that may well make the point moot: the protestor in such a situation would likely become famous for that protest, and would likely never hear the end of it.
Created: Fri 18:09
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18563 - John Mooney
the protestor in such a situation would likely become famous for that protest, and would likely never hear the end of it.
John re: "the protestor in such a situation would likely become famous for that protest, and would likely never hear the end of it."

Yea .. maybe .. probably .. but I don't think that's a reason to keep something just because it's so poorly constructed that people would be too embarrassed to enforce it. 

Looks like the case is from 1996.  In the past 30 years I think it's safe to say that we've put competitor health and safety much more at the forefront than we did back then.

I think this Case is ripe for a reexamination under those grounds.
Created: Fri 18:42
Tim O'Connor
Case 89 is that there is not a necessity for the water container to be worn outside of those exceptions with nowhere to stow or attach it, therefore the purpose of wearing it where that water container could be stowed is not due either to having the water - it could be stowed instead of worn, including clipped to a lifeline - or due to a necessity to wear it to have it - again, you could stow or clip it. Since it is not for those, it follows - that is, it must be considered - that it is to increase weight for stability, therefore it’s not permitted. 

I would note, though, as someone who once used a weight jacket back in the day as a handy way of transporting a six pack I’d won sailing, Rule 51 is phrased only in terms of water, and to adapt Merchant of Venice - the rule makes no mention of beer…
Created: Fri 18:16
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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18564 - Tim O'Connor
Rule 51 is phrased only in terms of water, and to adapt Merchant of Venice - the rule makes no mention of beer… Reply
Case 89 says "beverage container".

My point is that the issue at the heart of the case is a beverage container effectively moving with a crew member from side to side on the boat.  One might use that case to conclude that this also applies to beverage containers carried from side-to-side with crew.

IMO, Case 89 could have said the following (with respect to Ben and the rest of the metric world) and made more sense and seemed more rational to me.

Case 89 Rewrite (with edits/revisions)
Q: Does rule 50.1(a) permit a competitor to wear or otherwise attach to his person a beverage container while racing?

A: It depends upon the volume/weight of the beverage and container.  Any volume of beverage greater than 0.5L (0.5kg fluid) is beyond the reasonable immediate hydration needs of a competitor and therefore its primary purpose must  [should then] be considered [detemined] to be to increase the competitor's weight [and not hydration]. 

[For example, a 0.5L plastic squeeze-bottle (commonly associated with cycling) carried on the body in an elastic mesh bottle-holder built into a PFD/harness/clothing would be acceptable.]

Therefore, up to 0.5L/0.5kg of fluid is permitted and beyond those limits it is not.  (Note that rules B4 and F4 modify rule 50.1(a) for windsurfing competition and kiteboard racing.)
Created: Fri 18:33
Jim Champ
> must / should then
I suppose one could interpret it as "therefore its primary purpose [in the context of the RRS] must [, by the PC,] be considered..."  ie that it must be considered as ballast for rule purposes no matter what the actual intent. Do you think assumed might be a better word than considered?
Created: Fri 20:11
Jim Champ
I suppose it could be argued that there is no reason why drinking water should not be stowed in the cockpit and handed up when its actually needed and then handed back. Stowing water on the rail and transferring it from side to side at each tack seems to me a very dubious exercise. If it is considered to be permitted then the potential for abuse is obvious and very great.
Created: Fri 18:29
Tim O'Connor
Rule 50.1 (a) doesn’t refer to a drinking container any more, though; Case 89 seems to be quoting an older version. Would anyone know when it changed?
Created: Fri 18:42
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Angelo Guarino
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Jim .. maybe "determined". 
Created: Fri 21:21
Tim O'Connor
I would just think that there’s no need to over-read it. “Must be considered to be” is just Reflexive Lawyer Passive Voice for “is”; if it’s from 1996, then that’s almost certainly why. 
Created: Fri 21:29
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Hey guys, get a grip.

Case 89 was directed at camelbacks.

It's quite clear and applies only to what a competitor may wear or otherwise attach to his person.  If anyone was bothered it would apply to a drink bottle in a waist pack, or indeed a pocket.

It does not apply to drink containers not worn or attached to a competitor's person, such as clipped to lifelines.'

As Ben said RRS 51 is the applicable rule.  One or more normal sized water bottles would not be caught by RRS 51.

There was a notorious incident involving an Etchells which thought it necessary to carry sufficient drinking water which amounted to over 5 24 bottle packs of water, which sometimes miraculously moved from side to side in the cockpit.  That was a breach of RRS 51.
Created: Fri 21:44
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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18573 - John Allan
if that's what it's meant to be John .. it should say so ... and not be written so broadly. IMO is should  also clearly carve out a "reasonable" amount of fluids (which it does not). 
Created: Fri 22:36
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Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
As it is written now .. there is no amount of water that is allowed.

I think you nailed it here without knowing it.

They don't want you to have 'any water' attached to you in any way. They positively WANT you to use a detached bottle.

They don't care (other rules handle) if you move a bottle from side to side or clip it here or there. 50.1 is about stopping people wearing weight.

It would be too easy to game the rule if a certain specified quantity (metric or not) was allowed. People would take their specified quantity and complain why not more on hot days or long races?

No. Bottles, free and not worn are what they want people to use. Open for all to see and safe and easy, and covered in other rules about ballast issues. 

So let's just say any water worn in clothing or on clothing is cheating.

A blanket restriction for simplicity's sake. 

The case seems fine if you look at it that way. 
Created: Yesterday 00:43
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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
Ben .. thanks for that reply.  I get what you are seeing in the case and saying. 
Created: Yesterday 01:28
Jim Champ
Completely agree that the case is solely about clothing. Historically it's all to do with dinghy crews.
But I'm not at all sure you can extrapolate from that and say that they want crews carrying detached water bottles around.

I suggest that if a protest came up alleging that multiple water bottles, transferred between tacks, were being used as ballast, then one would start by looking at the word necessity in Case 89.
The case says to me that if there is no necessity for drinking water bottles to be transferred from side to side then it must be assumed/determined/considered to be being moved for trim and stability and as such be in breach of RRS51. And to me there is no necessity for storing water on the rail, it is simply convenience. 
Created: Yesterday 06:45
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Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
Fine Jim..

Was mainly trying to stress the difference between wearing water weight (not wanted) vs an alternate (don't care). 

But you're right.. Case 89 isn't preferring any particular alternate method of carrying water.. Just not wearing on body or clothing. 

However, I don't think Case 89 is relevant to water transferred from side to side, but not worn.  Case 89 is specifically about weight on clothing or body.   At least I wouldn't refer to it in a decision write-up. 

Your protest is about Rule 51 and as of yet there is no referring Case.

Probably because Rule 51 is pretty simple in meaning and interpretation.  (We don't need cases on everything...)
Created: Yesterday 07:00
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
"They" don't want crews to do anything except not wear camelbacks, or honking big bergens with 50l of water in them, pretending they're camelbacks.

If you are looking at waterbottles that are not worn or otherwise attached to the person of a competitor, don't go anywhere near Case 89.

The test in RRS 51 is whether "water ... [is] moved for the purpose of changing trim or stability".

60 bottles of mineral water on an Etchells:  Yes.
15 alloy drink bottles on the rail of a TP52:  No
10 crew on the rail of a TP52, each clutching a 10l bulk water container in their arms:  Yes.

Is it all that dificult? 
Created: Yesterday 06:56
Jim Champ
Reply to: 18578 - John Allan
> 15 drink bottles
I argue yes, it breaks 51.

I look at Case 89 because to me it sets out an example that when an action is unnecessary then the PC must consider it's breaking a rule. It seems to me they don't have to consider motive. 

Carrying water bottles on the rail is unnecessary because they can be stowed in one place and passed up and back as needed. RRS 51 doesn't place any limits on how much trim change is illegal, it's absolutely prohibited. 
Created: Yesterday 09:28
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18578 - John Allan
John re: "If you are looking at waterbottles that are not worn or otherwise attached to the person of a competitor, don't go anywhere near Case 89."

What i'm suggesting is that a single 0.5L squeeze bottle (aka cycling bottle) tucked into an elastic mesh bottle holder (where the holder is intergrated into either PFD, or  article of clothing) should be allowed by this Case. As i read it, it is not. 
Created: Yesterday 10:58
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Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
My bad for extrapolating to 'want' water bottles.  I take that back.

The rest stands.  Case 89 clarifies that any water is not needed to be carried on body or in clothing (unless boards).  It's limited to that topic.

Any other question of water being moved from side to side is covered by RRS 51 - simple and so no case needed.

Cheers!
Created: Yesterday 07:27
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
As judges we should not be thinking about what is needed.

We should be thinking about what the rules say boats and competitors shall or shall not do.
Created: Yesterday 07:29
Tim O'Connor
Reply to: 18581 - John Allan
So what you’re saying is, movable beer ballast is a go, then…?
Created: Yesterday 08:08
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Tim, I said we shouldn't be thinking about what the crew need.
Created: Yesterday 08:10
Tim O'Connor
Jim - Rule 51 does have a requirement for motive, though. “For the purpose of changing trim or stability.”
Created: Yesterday 09:59
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
JIm,
In assigning a purpose to deploying weight on a boat, I think you have to consider the effect or likely effect of the shift in weight. 
 
Consider the effect of a 4 or 5 litre camelback (5kg) on a dinghy weighing say 120 kg. 
 
Compare this with 15x750ml waterbottles (11.25kg) on a large keelboat say a TP52 at 6975kg 
 
You can't keep a straight face and say those 15 drink bottles are going to change the trim or stability on the TP.
Created: Yesterday 11:04
Jim Champ
Reply to: 18587 - John Allan
I don't think that's the point. As you said below a half litre squeeze bottle isn't allowed in clothing, and in the days when I spent long days on the water racing in dinghies our drinks bottles were always stowed somewhere in the boat and only got out between races for a drink. As the case says there was no necessity for a camel back or bottle stored in clothing because we had an alternative. Personally I think it's a good rule because people will always push the boundaries. 

So when it comes to RRS51, the rule includes no minimum for trim change. If you say fifteen half litre bottles are OK, and fifteen ten litre bottles are not, at what point does it break the rule? If water bottles were attached randomly to the rail on both sides maybe that would be one thing, but to me, if they are consistently changed from side to side on every tack, that definitely raises questions. 
Created: Yesterday 11:52
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Angelo,  What i'm suggesting is that a single 0.5L squeeze bottle (aka cycling bottle) tucked into an elastic mesh bottle holder (where the holder is intergrated into either PFD, or  article of clothing) should be allowed by this Case. As i read it, it is not. 

I would agree that it probably should be allowed.

But RRS 50.1(a) and Case 89 says it is not.

As judges we should be looking at what the rules say, not what they should say.
Created: Yesterday 11:06
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18588 - John Allan
Of course John I ageee with that last statement. 

i'm suggesting that the Case might be rewritten (as I posted here).  It's 30yrs old without revision and as i mentioned in a previous comment, we have elevated concerns for the health and safety of competitors over those 3 decades. 
Created: Yesterday 11:16
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
JIm,  If you say fifteen half litre bottles are OK, and fifteen ten litre bottles are not, at what point does it break the rule? 

Semantically <g> RRS 50.1(a) deals with purpose of increasing weight (mass), RRS 51 deals with purpose of changing trim or stability (righting moment).

The point that it breaks RRS 51, in my opinion is when it affects or is likely to affect trim or stability.
Created: Yesterday 11:59
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