27.2
states that no later than the preparatory signal, the race committee may move a starting mark.
Rule 33
"CHANGING THE NEXT LEG OF THE COURSE"
allows the race committee to change a leg of the course that begins at a rounding mark or at a gate while boats are racing. This is done by changing the position of the next mark (or the finishing line) and signaling all boats before they begin the leg. The next mark does not need to be in position at that time.
It is clear that Rule 27.2 only applies to starting marks, and Rule 33 does not include the starting line as the beginning of the next leg. Additionally, starting marks are, in my opinion, not considered rounding marks.
This leads to my questions:
How long is the race committee allowed to change the position of the first windward mark?
Which rule in the racing rules supports the correct answer?
many thx
2. we tried to rotate the whole course by -20 degrees due to the change of the wind direction. Moved the pin end back (to lee) first and tried to adjust the first mark by 200 m or so accordingly
RRS 34 also provides that if a mark is out of position while boats are racing, the race committee shall, if possible ... move it to its correct position ...
I take Andreas' point about Blac Flag and U Flag requiring a mark to be present (?in the water?), but otherwise, if the mark is out of position, say, still aboard a mark vessel, the race committee shall move it to its correct position, obviously, as soon as possible.
This approach relies on the SI telling us what the proper position of the mark is, that is 'windward' etc.
The answer he was looking for was, "When they (the competitors) need it."
I've seen several instances with IROs (looking at you, PVM) having the windward mark visible in close proximity to it's final position, but not set at the start - usually to tweak a target time, not so much a bearing.
The issue with 30.3 and 30.4 ("requiring" a fixed weather mark) is non issue. Given a 0.3 nm starting line and a 1.5 nm first leg, the interior angle of the triangle is 84.3°. Changing the distance has a minimal effect on that (extending to 2.0 nm changes it to 85.7°). Changing the angle has about a 1:1 ratio on the interior angle (using the original dimensions (5° move to one side causes the interior angle to change approximately +5° on one side and -5° on the other).
I always ask myself the "Redress Question." I ask myself, "Is this likely to involve me being in a redress hearing?" If the probability is low, then I'm more inclined to do it.
Truly, the bottom line is what are you trying to accomplish? Hit a specific target time? Have a perfectly square course? It should all relate to the competitor experience - the question to ask yourself is, "Is what I'm doing making the race better for the competitors - and by how much?" High-risk actions for minimal improvement is rarely a good thing.
And I completely agree with Matt's last paragraph.
I don't see where it says you can't.
But, per SI 11.2 (https://onb.ilca.roms.ar/ilca6ilca7masters2025/images/onbdocs/SAILING_INSTRUCTIONS_Amendment_5.pdf) the race committee could change the windward mark position +/- 10 degrees, at any time. This seems like a poorly written sailing instruction, since it opens the door for abuse.
The Race Committee may change the position of Mark 1 (the windward mark) by up to ±10° of the original bearing only if a persistent wind‑direction shift of 10° or more is measured (or expected) and is assessed to give a consistent advantage to one side of the course.
This sets a clear threshold rather than “at any time”.
How bad would that be if you had boats in the zone and the mark started dancing around?
Only time I experienced something like this with a robo-mark, it was because a boat had dragged the mark some distance (spinnaker up, though not sure what they caught on, since no anchor line). With a standard mark, you would either see the anchor stretch, OR you would have the mark remain where it was after dragging the anchor, so that was frustrating for the back of the fleet even though it wasn't an (intentional) RC error, and just an artifact of the robo mark returning to it's "spot".
11.2 – Change of Position of the Windward Mark (Mark 1).
For context:
We recently ran the VX One North American Championship using a fully digital race management system. The entire operation — starting sequences, mark movements, course changes, tracking, and finishes — was handled by RaceSense and MarkSetBots, all controlled from a single signal boat. Apart from that, we had just one safety boat and a media boat on the course — and that was the full on-water team.
This same concept came up in the orange-flag discussion. With a drop-mark ... you can see the mark-boat grab it and drag it. With these mark-bots ... you have no visual indication that they are moving or have moved.
Sure .... in the rare instance we'd have a mark drag a bit ... but I don't think the RRS and SI templates have kept up with adding required visual cues for setting-or and moving-of mark-bots.
I think we need some set-signals that we start standardizing on ... be it a windward mark-bot or a starting-pin markbot.
It's an obvious enough option, so I imagine you discussed it in the other topic, but maybe the markbot needs to have a flashing light or something when it thinks it's not on station. Do they use differential GPS? Without it I imagine the thing will do a lot of jogging around.
As described above, if you wanrt to do something after the start it would have to be addressed in the SIs as is done in the mark bot case. You could write an SI such that the "windward mark will be placed .7 NM on the average wind axis." Then you have descibed where the mark would be.
See Case 32 - "A competitor is entitled to look exclusively to the notice of race or to written sailing instructions for all details relating to sailing the course"
A few comments from an ILCA saillor's perspective:
The Race Committee may change the position of Mark 1 by no more than ±10° from its original bearing >> Seems good, since the marks won't be too out of position. It's often not easy to spot the marks when they're 0.7 or 1.0 miles away.
to maintain a fair first leg >> Good to mention the spirit of the SI.
when a persistent wind shift of 10° or more has occurred. >> I'd leave this out, since the definition of a persistent shift is hazy at best. Case in point: at the ILCA Masters Worlds in Formia, Italy, the wind shifts were stochastic: they would oscillate predictably for a while, and then suddenly shift hard right or left 25 degrees. Then go back to oscillating off this new baseline. It was hard to establish a pattern.
Any such change must be made and completed before the first boat has sailed more than 25% of the distance to Mark 1, based on the original course bearing. >> This is the crux of the question: should it be 0% (i.e., as stated by RRS 33), 25%, or something else. Also, how to reliably measure that distance and determine which boat is first seems hard.
After that point, no further repositioning shall occur, except to replace a missing mark under RRS 34. >> Seems fine.
The change shall be signaled by displaying flag C with repetitive sound signals from the Race Committee signal vessel or a designated mark boat stationed along the first leg, and, if possible, broadcast on VHF Channel ???. This changes RRS 33. >> Seems fine.
I too use RaceSence and Autonomous Marks a lot and think they are both great. I always post the "Race Management Guidelines" on the ONB where I describe how I will run the racing. If they competitors are required to have VHF I tell them the bearing and distance to Mark 1 just after the prep signal. If using boards I will post it after displaying the Orange flag if I have a big fleet and by the Warning Signal if a small fleet so they have time to see it. I don't lay marks until the start in deep water. If there is a big wind shift before the start I AP and change the boards/radio.
The SI I use use is:
9.2 The autonomous marks will go back to their original positions if they
I've have been objecting to the standard "no redress" language that seems to be commonly used with RaceSense.
Combining that std language with what you have above, if RaceSense says you are over ... but you are "significantly behind" the line ... tough luck on you ... no redress avenue. With the above, if you are over and it says you are not, you are still responsible for sighting the line.
This scenario happened to me the first time I used RS as a competitor during a "test start" before the first race. I was clearly over the line but RS was telling me I was behind. I could tell this because I just so happened to be closest to the pin. Had I been in the middle of the line if a large fleet of 10m boats ... I would never have realized it.
1. I had boats who suddenly "went dark" 10 seconds before the start and went live again 10 seconds afterwards. Some were judged OCS by the line officers. I was told by other competitors that they put a bag over the device in their boat, probably a faraday cage.
2. I had boats that consistently "stuck out" on the start line by a couple of meters at the start but did not go dark nor showed as OCS although the Line Officer called them OCS (but the SIs say we can not score them OCS). The other competitors told me that they have two vakaros devices, they put the one registered with the Race Committee in the helm's pocket, and have an unregistered one on the mast fitting.
3. I had problems a couple of years ago with boats being called OCS by RaceSense when the Line Officers said they were significantly behind the line. Checking their Vakaros device, it was set up as a TP52, not an RS21!! RaceSense now allows the race officer to set the type of boat for all competitors and make it unchangeable. I have not had that problem since.
Interestingly at the 2025 RS21 Worlds where we had 49 boats, over half professional sailors, (where I used those guidelines) we had no discrepancies between the line officers and the RaceSense on either the start or the finish.
I recall someone stating that the first mark needs to be anchored before the boats reach the lay line. This is a chicken-and-egg issue, since the lay line cannot be defined until the mark is in position.
When RRS 30.3 or 30.4 are in effect it is preferable for the first mark to be in position one minute before the starting signal. However, a boat would have a difficult time convincing a protest committee that it did not break RRS 30.3 or 30.4 if any part of its hull was above the start line in the last minute before the starting signal when the first mark was not in position. There are a few geometry exceptions, most of the time as long as the first mark was on the course side of the start line the boat would have broken RRS 30.3 or 30.4.
Robotic mark are here to stay and sailors need to get used to that. Yes, robotic marks move and go back to their original location when pushed out of position by a boat, but the same is true in some cases with traditional marks. If a keelboat snags a mark with a long anchor line but does not drag the anchor, the mark will move back to its original position.
It should be noted that the 2025 ILCA Master Worlds in Formia used Effetto Venturi Gipsy marks and not MarkSetBots marks.
That's all in addition to the chance for confusion from moving and signalling. The test of skill is to go around the mark as set. If it's totally unfair, moving the mark won't make it more fair, and has a chance to make it less fair. Restart the race if it's not a good test of skill, and adjust the next leg instead.
1. Determine which is the longest tack off the starting line. For instance, if the median wind direction is 270, and the mark bearing is 280, then (all else equal, in oscillating conditions) you should plan to get onto port tack soon after the start, in order to sail the long tack (port) first and preserve your options.
2. Plan your likely downwind strategy. In the above example, in a sloop, you'll want to sail the long jibe (starboard) first, and plan on a bearaway spinnaker set being most likely (subject to wind shifts). In a Laser in less than 9 knots, you'll want to jibe to get onto the faster by the lee port jibe (putting wave skew aside).
3. Determine how to find the leeward mark or gate if big waves, by taking the reciprocal of the windward mark heading, and using that as your median heading (modulo any heading changes for puffs and/or waves).
All that planning is the mark of a well-prepared boat, and it goes out the window if the windward mark is moved.
This is what I use for change of course after the start:
The position of the marks may be adjusted slightly for small shifts in the mean wind (+/-5 degrees) without signaling a change of course. Any adjustments will be made before the first boat is on the leg to the adjusted mark. This changes RRS 33.