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R 18.2(a) and exoneration under R 21
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
2
For a port rounding weather mark, two boats enter the zone on port, with Green ahead and to leeward of Yellow. Green tacks to stbd to fetch the mark. Yellow starts to tack, but contact occurs before Yellow completes her tack. There is no damage. Each boat protests the other, and no penalty turns are taken.
Q1. When does Yellow gain mark room under R18.2(a)? As soon the overlap begins as she gains stbd tack after passing htw, or after her tack is completed?
Q2. If Yellow gains mark room under R18.2(a) as soon as the overlap is established as she passes htw to stbd, is she exonerated for breaking R 13 under R 21?
John
Created: 20-May-17 16:29
Comments
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
2
See World Sailing Case 27 and World Sailing Case 15
Created: 20-May-17 16:36
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
Correct outcome, Mark, but the question remains: when does new mark room begin? RRS 13 applies, but it does not negate 18.
Created: 20-May-17 17:15
Stephen Procter
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Judge
National Umpire
1
In the situation where boats are not fetching a mark, take the mark away and work out the rules that apply. If RRS 18 then applies, apply it. In this situation a boat has broken a rule before 18.2a can be applied.
Created: 20-May-17 17:24
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
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I'd say Y's entitlement to room begins as soon as she is on starboard tack, which is to say as soon as she passes head to wind. So she's entitled to room but still must keep clear under rule 13 until she's on a close-hauled course.
From the diagram it appears that G was giving mark room. If that's the case and Y made contact anyway then I think she was sailing outside of the mark room she was entitled to, so broke rule 13 & 14 and is not exonerated for either. G broke 14 (assuming it was reasonably possible for her to avoid contact) but is exonerated by 14(b).
Created: 20-May-17 17:50
Rick Hatch
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
International Judge
National Umpire
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At position 2, by her own action Green reacquired ROW, and was required to initially give Yellow room to keep clear. At that point, Yellow’s only option was to tack (given the positions of the boats relative to each other, it was too risky for Y to try to duck G), and G needed to luff sufficiently to permit Y to complete her tack to starboard. Green did not do so. Green failed to give Yellow room to keep clear and broke RRS 15; Y is exonerated under RRS 21(a) for her breach of RRS 13. Because it was not reasonably possible for Yellow to have avoided contact with Green, Yellow did not break RRS 14. Because was reasonably possible for Green to have avoided contact with Yellow, but because there was no damage or injury Green as the right of way boat is exonerated under RRS 14(b) for breaking RRS 14.
In this incident, RRS 18.3 never applied. To answer John Ball’s question requires a scenario where RRS 18.2(b) did not or had ceased to apply, Green tacked further away from Yellow or Yellow was further astern when both boats were on port tack (i.e. Green did not break RRS 15) and Yellow completed her tack (did not break RRS 13). Then, RRS 18.1(a) would apply. John, do you want to submit a different scenario and diagram?
Created: 20-May-17 19:23
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
Please pardon my diagramming skills. The intent of the question is to focus on Yellow. My intent is that Green completed her tack to stbd without breaking R 13. Then Yellow luffs up both to round the mark, but also to stay clear of Green (R10). I was not trying to show that Yellow took more room that needed, nor that Green broke R 15 as these move the focus away from my question.
My sailing these days is RC, using Appendix E and a 4 length circle, where there is more room to separate the boats for this type of incident. However I tried to draw it with a three length circle for general application. So here is a new diagram with a 4 length zone and greater separation.
I am exploring the issues that arise the instant when Yellow passes HTW and how the rules apply to effect Green.
To me, as soon as Yellow passes HTW, she is on stbd and is tacking and is subject to R 13, however, at that same instant she passes HTW, she immediately become overlapped with Green, also on stbd. As they are both in the zone, and no other parts of R 18 apply, R 18.2(a) applies and so at that same instant, Yellow acquires Mark Room. As Yellow is entitled to mark room it appears that she is eligible for exoneration under R 21.
The issue I am seeking to highlight is “should Yellow becomes eligible for R21 exoneration when she achieved that Mark Room by virtue of breaking R 13”?
Created: 20-May-17 20:14
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
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John B., (oops) Rick, I’m with’ya all the way except for ...
“Because it was not reasonably possible for Yellow to have avoided contact with Green, Yellow did not break RRS 14.”
It’s not clear to me that Yellow, prioritizing missing Green over missing the mark, couldn’t have done so.
Created: 20-May-17 23:06
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
International Umpire
2
Whether we work from Jon's first diagram or his second, I think the answer is, this is all on Green. From the time Yellow passes head to wind, Green owes her mark-room under rule 18.2(a). That includes room for Yellow to sail to the mark. By not giving Yellow that room, Green breaks rule 18.2(a). Yellow breaks rule 13 but is exonerated for that breach under rule 21 because she is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled. On the subject of rule 14, Green breaks that rule but is exonerated because there's no damage. Green could have luffed at position 2.9 in the first diagram and at position 3.1 in the second to keep clear, so Yellow doesn't break rule 14 because it isn't clear Green won't give room until it is too late for Yellow to avoid contact. I disagree with Angelo -- no rule puts an obligation on Yellow to "prioritize missing Green over missing the mark". Yellow is not required by rule 14 to avoid contact until it is clear that Green will not give her the room to which she is entitled. In Jon's second diagram, that moment hasn't yet occurred!
Created: 20-May-18 02:12
Al Sargent
0
Mark, thanks for pointing out World Sailing case 27. Given the wording from that case, BP "had perhaps one to two seconds to decide what to do and then do it" -- and since two seconds wasn't enough time, BP is reinstated.
Doing the math on how fast various types of boats travel in two seconds, we can determine how much distance there must be between AS's leeward side (aka green, the boat tacking onto starboard) and the bow of BP (aka yellow, the port tack boat), when AS completes their tack onto starboard:
At 3 knots of speed -- a Laser upwind at max speed:
2 seconds = 10 foot gap
At 4 knots of speed -- Vanguard 15 or 420 not planing upwind:
2 seconds = 14 foot gap
At 5 knots of speed -- Vanguard 15 or 420 planing upwind:
2 seconds = 17 foot gap
At 6 knots of boat speed -- a J/105
2 seconds = 20 foot gap
(Here's a google search you can use to see the relationship between knots and feet per second.)
That means if a Laser completes their tack onto starboard with over half a boatlength of clearance, they've broken rule 15. Same for a 420 or Vanguard 15 does so with a boatlength of clearance (and more if they're planing).
I'm not a judge, merely a competitor, but there are lots of races where dinghies are completing their tacks onto starboard with 10-17 feet of clearance between them and a port tacker. The way our sport could evolve, especially in team racing, is a lot of protests by port tackers ducking starboard boats. Port risks nothing by filing such a protest. This could lead to an increase in the number of protests filed. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it seems to be how case 27 and the math play out.
Also, case 27 states that 2 seconds isn't enough, but not how much time IS enough. Is it 3 seconds? 4? This matters because the math dictates the gap that AS/green needs to have coming out of their tack. For example, 4 seconds means a 420 or V15 needs to complete their tack with a two-boatlength gap on port's bow.
Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting anything here.
It's also surprising the number of degrees that port needs to bear away hasn't come up yet. There's a big difference between how much time port/yellow needs to execute a dip if they're bow-to-bow with starboard/green (John's example) versus bow-to-midpoint (case 27). In John's example, port needs to dip ~90 degrees once they complete their bearaway. In case 27, port needs to duck ~20 degrees. Bearing away 90 degrees in two seconds is indeed tough, but bearing away 20 degrees in two seconds is quite doable for a competent, seamanlike team.
My point is, any discussion of whether rule 15 was violated needs to include a discussion of how many degrees port/yellow needs to bear away once blue/starboard has completed their tack. It really can't be determined by "speed and distance", which are the only two variables that case 27 mentions.
Am I missing something?
Created: 20-May-18 04:43
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Q1. When does Yellow gain mark room under R18.2(a)? As soon the overlap begins as she gains stbd tack after passing htw, or after her tack is completed?
If rule 18.2(b) applied when Green entered the zone on port tack, it would cease to apply when Green tacked onto starboard. As soon as Yellow passes head to wind, the boats are no longer on opposite tacks and rule 18 applies. By definition, the boats are overlapped and rule 18.2(a) applies. Green, as outside boat is required to give Yellow mark room.
Q2. If Yellow gains mark room under R18.2(a) as soon as the overlap is established as she passes htw to stbd, is she exonerated for breaking R 13 under R 21?
As soon as Yellow passes head to wind, she is sailing within the mark room to which she is entitled. Green is required to give Yellow mark room. Yellow breaks rule 13, which is a rule of Part A. Rule 21(a) exonerates Yellow.
Created: 20-May-18 05:18
Ant Davey
Certifications:
National Judge
International Judge
Umpire In Training
1
All 18.1 does is say when rule 18.2 applies. It states no rights or obligations. 18.2 (a) doesn't apply as green was clear ahead when she entered the zone. 18.2 (d) applies as green passed head to wind inside the zone. So, 18.2 (b) and (c) don't apply. 18.2 (e) is irrelevant in this situation. 18.2 (f) doesn't apply as the inside overlap wasn't obtained by tacking to windward of the other boat. 18.3 doesn't apply because yellow hasn't been on starboard since entering the zone. 18.4 doesn't apply as the diagram doesn't go that far... Green has completed her tack, so the question is Did she give yellow time and opportunity to keep clear? Rule 13 seems only come into this because yellow insisted on sailing round the mark, when feasibly she could have kept clear by sailing to leeward of the mark. There is no obligation for green to give yellow mark room, so yellow may well have been able to complete her tack and keep clear if she had gone below the mark. (I'm a novice IOM sailor, so would say conditions and boat speed will be relevant.)
Created: 20-May-18 07:21
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
International Umpire
0
Ant,
Rule 18.2(d) applies here. When the boats enter the zone on the same tack, Green is clear ahead and therefore entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b). However, when Green passes head to wind, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. When Yellow passes head to wind, rule 18.2(a) applies.
Created: 20-May-18 15:04
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
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What I do find interesting is that Green must give Yellow room instantaneously starting at the point in time when Yellow crosses HTW, whether she can or not. There is no RRS 15 or RRS 18.2(f) allowance available. This means that, in order to provide room for Yellow in the future, Green may have to act to give Yellow room before she actually is entitled to it, i.e. while Green is still ROW stbd and Yellow is on port and luffing up to tack.
Green might be able to successfully argue that Yellow broke RRS 10 as she was (or would have been) forced to alter course while ROW in anticipation of having to give Yellow the room required once Yellow crossed HTW, i.e. that Yellow was not keeping clear while still on port tack as Green could not sail her course while RRS 10 applied and RRS 18 did not. Provided that you find Green did all they could to give Yellow room starting at the instant Yellow crossed HTW you could conclude that Green would have had to act even sooner to give the required room.
Maybe both boats have broken rules and neither is exonerated. Yellow's breach of RRS 10 did not compel Green to break RRS 18.2(a) so Green is not exonerated under 64.1(a). Yellow is not exonerated for breaking RRS 10 under RRS 21 as she was not entitled to room while luffing up and neither RRS 21 or 64.1(a) apply.
A parallel situation would be a leeward boat subject to RRS 17 sailing above proper course and a windward boat not keeping clear. Both break rules and neither is exonerated.
Created: 20-May-18 16:08
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
0
In this scenario, mark room does not include room to tack. Does that come into play in determining whether Y is sailing within room she's entitled to? She becomes entitled to mark room when she passes HTW, but is still tacking at that point, and still tacking when contact occurs.
Created: 20-May-18 16:20
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
0
Tim, After Green passes through head to wind, Yellow’s obligation to give Green mark-room under rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. (see rule 18.2(d) rule 18.1(b) ).
Created: 20-May-18 18:26
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
2
Prior to position 1;
Green reaches the zone clear ahead of Blue and therefore is entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b).
Position 2;
After Green passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. (see rule 13).
After Green passes through head to wind, Yellow’s obligation to give Green mark-room under rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. (see rule 18.2(d) or rule 18.1(b) ).
When Green is on a close-hauled course she acquires right-of-way through her own actions, and shall initially give Yellow room to keep clear. (see rule 15).
Position 3;
After Yellow passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. (see rule 13).
However, after Yellow passes head to wind, Rule 18 begins to apply because the boats are in the zone and no longer on opposite tacks and none of the exceptions in rule 18.1 apply.
As they are overlapped, rule 18.2(a) begins to apply, and it requires Green to give Yellow mark-room while the boats remain overlapped.
Provided Yellow, a boat entitled to mark-room, is sailing her proper course, she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled by rule 18.2(a) and will be exonerated under rule 21 if she breaks rule 13, rule 14 or rule 31.
Created: 20-May-18 18:34
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
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Mark, that's not what I'm asking. At around 2.5 to 3, Y is tacking. She becomes entitled to mark room as soon as she passes HTW and is on the same tack as G, but does that mark room include room to execute her tack, given definition of mark room?
Edited to add, I think your last post analysis of Position 3 answers my question. Y's proper course after passing HTW is to come down to the mark so she's within her mark room entitlement as long as she does that.
Created: 20-May-18 18:40
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
2
IMHO Position 3;
After Yellow passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. (see rule 13).
However, after Yellow passes head to wind, Rule 18 begins to apply because the boats are in the zone and no longer on opposite tacks and none of the exceptions in rule 18.1 apply.
As they are overlapped, rule 18.2(a) begins to apply, and it requires Green to give Yellow mark-room while the boats remain overlapped.
Provided Yellow, a boat entitled to mark-room, is sailing her proper course, she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled by rule 18.2(a) and will be exonerated under rule 21 if she breaks rule 13, rule 14 or rule 31.
As John Christman observed.
Green must give Yellow room instantaneously starting at the point in time when Yellow crosses HTW, whether she can or not. There is no RRS 15 or RRS 18.2(f) allowance available.
The strange thing is it appears that if Yellow sails her proper course after passing through head to wind she can't get disqualified for breaking rule 13 as she will be exonerated under rule 21.
Created: 20-May-18 19:01
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
It seems reasonable to apply 18.2.e and Webster's Dictionary to Yellow: There is doubt that Yellow obtained an overlap IN TIME for Green to respond. The rule does not specifically assign IN TIME to the zone boundary, although we customarily apply it there. Hence, potentially DSQ Yellow for this violation, IF not DSQ'ing Green for tacking too close for Yellow to respond. Or both. This would be a conclusion. Not a fact.
Created: 20-May-18 19:35
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
0
The "doubt" in 18.2(e) refers both to doubt by boats involved in or observing an incident and to doubt by the protest committee. The protest committee should have recourse to rule 18.2(e) only when there is insufficient reliable evidence for it to decide the case otherwise.
For protest hearings, the standard of proof is the “balance of probability”, unless a rule specifies a different burden of proof.
There is one rule,18.2(e), that permits the protest committee, when there is a reasonable doubt, to presume facts about whether a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time. However, the protest committee must not merely rely on this rule; it must take an active part in trying to resolve the doubt by other means. It should question the parties and witnesses to elicit all available evidence to find facts and to learn what actually happened. Then, if still in doubt, it may use rule 18.2(e) to resolve the protest.
When making its decision, rule 18.2(e) is relevant only when the protest committee is in doubt. In this case, the decision might use such words as: ‘The protest committee is not satisfied that A, astern established an inside overlap before B ahead reached the zone,’ and cite rule 18.2(e). When the protest committee is satisfied by the evidence that A astern failed to obtain an overlap, then the words used might be: ‘A astern failed to establish an inside overlap [etc.],’ and rule 18.2(e) would not be cited in the decision.
Does Yellow still tacking at position 3 or she already tacked? Mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack.
Created: 20-May-18 23:04
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
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There is doubt that Yellow obtained an overlap IN TIME for Green to respond.
Because they're in the zone and rule 18 applies between them, they can be overlapped even if on opposite tacks. So the overlap is established as G is tacking (between 1 and 2), plenty of time for G to respond to her obligation to give mark room.
Does Yellow still tacking at position 3 or she already tacked? Mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack.
Y is on starboard tack as soon as she passes HTW (definition of Tack), but she's still tacking until she reaches a close-hauled course (RRS 13). As long as G leaves sufficient room for Y to tack onto the layline and round the mark I think she's meeting her obligation to provide mark room - which is to say that G needs to remain at least a little more than one boat-width above the layline and allow room for Y's stern to swing as she rounds. Y shouldn't require additional room to weather of the layline to complete her tack, I don't think.
Created: 20-May-18 23:42
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
0
Uros, The facts in the original post indicate that Yellow has passed through head to wind, but has not reached a close-hauled course.
Yellow starts to tack, but contact occurs before Yellow completes her tack.
Created: 20-May-18 23:49
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
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Tim - When Green passes HTW tacking onto stbd they are no longer on the same tack and therefore 18 does not apply so they are not overlapped per the definition. They clearly are overlapped when 18 "turns on" again when Yellow passes through HTW.
Created: 20-May-19 00:04
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
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Tim - When Green passes HTW tacking onto stbd they are no longer on the same tack and therefore 18 does not apply so they are not overlapped per the definition. They clearly are overlapped when 18 "turns on" again when Yellow passes through HTW.
Yeah, I knew I looked at that before and forgot. They're also on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, and Y's proper course is to tack at the mark, so you're right, they're not overlapped until they're on the same tack.
Created: 20-May-19 00:08
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
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Because they're in the zone and rule 18 applies between them, they can be overlapped even if on opposite tacks. So the overlap is established as G is tacking (between 1 and 2), plenty of time for G to respond to her obligation to give mark room.
At position 2, after Green passes through head to wind, Yellow’s obligation to give Green mark-room under rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. (see rule 18.2(d) or rule 18.1(b) ). A new obligation under another part of rule 18 does NOT apply between positions 2 and 3 because Green and Yellow are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, (see rule 18.1(a) ).
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply (a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, (b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap. … LAST 2 SENTENCES ... These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.
Created: 20-May-19 00:10
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
0
It is similar to when two boats are approaching the mark on starboard, the leeward boat is not laying the weather mark and luffs to round the mark. Even if rule 17 applies she is still allowed to luff as she is sailing within the mark-room she is allowed by 18.2(b).
In this case if you just look at position 3, it is all on Green provided, after passing through head to wind, Yellow continues to sail within the mark-room she is allowed under 18.2(a).. Yellow breaks rule 13 and rule 14 but is exonerated under rule 21. Even if she hits the mark and breaks rule 31 she is exonerated under rule 21.
If 18.2(a) did not apply, then Green could force Yellow to leeward of the mark. The purpose of Rule 18 is to enable boats to round the mark in a fair and orderly manner. It would be quite chaotic if Rule 18 allowed Green to force Yellow to the wrong side of the mark.
Created: 20-May-19 00:36
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
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If 18.2(a) did not apply, then Green could force Yellow to leeward of the mark. The purpose of Rule 18 is to enable boats to round the mark in a fair and orderly manner. It would be quite chaotic if Rule 18 allowed Green to force Yellow to the wrong side of the mark.
Mark, if G was clear ahead when they entered the zone that's exactly what G could force Y to do, isn't it? (On second thought I guess not - leeward ROW...)
Or if G entered the zone on stbd and Y was tacking in the zone.
Created: 20-May-19 00:44
Mark Wommack
Nationality: United States
0
I’m just a racer, but here’s my take:
18.1 defines the conditions that must exist for 18 to apply. They apply here.
18.2 b defines the moment the rule applies, when the first boat enters the zone. In the diagram, we don’t see the position of the boats when they enters the zone, but I'll assume there was an overlap, i.e. no reasonable doubt existed.
18.2 c defines when the rule ceases to apply, in this case when Yellow, the boat that is entitled to mark-room, passes head-to-wind. Green's tack does not turn rule 18 off.
Green can tack, but is still obligated under rule 18 to provide mark-room when she does. Because Yellow is inside and windward, based on the definition of mark-room, she is entitled to tack if she can fetch the mark after the tack. I take this to mean that Yellows tack does not turn off 18 as it conforms to the definition of mark-room.
Yellow was forced to tack at a point that required a luff to clear the mark. Green tacked too soon and didn’t give Yellow adequate mark-room, which included room to tack.
Created: 20-Jun-11 05:39
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Hi Mark,
Position 1 in the diagram shows G clear ahead of Y by 1-1/2 boat lengths. If we move both boats back two boat lengths, G's bow would be entering the zone and she would be clear ahead of Y. 18.2(b) gives G mark-room. When G passes head to wind, 18.2(d) turns off 18.2(b) and (c) and G no longer has mark-room. As the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat, rule 18 does not apply.. When Y passes head to wind at position3, both boats are on the same tack. rule 18 applies as none of the exemptions of 18.1 are satisfied. Rule 18.2(a) applies and Y is entitled to mark-room.
However, if we assume that G is sailing faster than Y and the boats are overlapped when G enters the zone (at position1 minus 2 boat lengths), Rule 18.2(b) applies and Y is inside with mark-room. When G passes head to wind, Rule 18.2(d) does not apply and 18.2(b) and (c) therefore do not get switched off by 18.2(d). However, Rule 18 no longer applies as the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat. When Y passes head to wind at position 3, Rule 18 is switched on again and Y is entitled to mark-room. Y is leeward boat and not entitled to room to tack.
Created: 20-Jun-11 14:29
Mark Wommack
Nationality: United States
0
I agree that the boats do not appear to be overlapped. What I have a trouble understanding is how rule 18 "turning back on after Yellow tacks, and even more so, how mark-room transfers to Yellow. As I understand,18 can only turn on at the moment the first boat enters the zone, and once it turns off, it's off.
IF that's true then:
If there is no overlap Green is entitled to mark-room, but that does not include room to tack because she is not the inside boat. 18 turns off when Green passes head-to-wind and Green must keep clear until she reached close-hauled. After that it's a simple port/starboard issue. If Green is in a position to complete the tack without fouling Yellow, then Yellow will need to either duck or tack away. Yellow should have recognized this at position 1, which is when Green starts her tack. Yellow is not obligated to keep clear until Green reaches close-hauled, and Green is obligated to give room to keep clear, but Yellow's late tack and luff to shoot the mark isn't keeping clear. Further, because she never reaches close-hauled, Yellow has no rights as a starboard tack boat.
If Green cannot reach close-hauled without fouling Yellow, Green cannot tack.
If there WAS an overlap, then Yellow is entitled to mark-room which includes room to tack because she is to windward and inside of Green as defined by mark-room.
Is there a case that talks about rule 18 turning back on? If this is the case I need to rethink everything I thought I knew about rule 18.
Created: 20-Jun-11 17:42
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
Mark,
R 18.2(a) only applies if R 18.2(b) or 18.3 do not apply and so it applies when two boats become overlapped by tacking in the zone. This happens as soon as Yellow passes HTW, and is now on stbd (same as Green), so the condition described by 18.2(a) now exist – so R 18 ‘turns on again’.
The reason I posted this scenario is that I see an inherent unfairness that is contrary to the concept of the ‘Corinthian’ spirit that is supposed to apply to racing.
Yellow was not forced to tack when she did – but as soon as she passes HTW, she breaks R 13, yet the way 18.2(a) works in this scenario, the action of breaking a rule creates the exoneration. I find nowhere else in the rules when exoneration is granted except where a boat is forced to break a rule by the improper action of another boat.
John
Created: 20-Jun-11 17:56
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
0
Mark,
I think that's a common misconception but I don't think there's anything in the rules that says that once 18 is off it stays off. The terms of the rule still apply.
Rule 18 turns back on in this scenario when:
the boats are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone (basic rule 18.1)
none of the exemptions in 18.1(a) through (d) apply (the opposite tacks exemptions cease to apply when Y passes HTW and they're both on starboard)
From that point Y is inside boat and 18.2(a) applies.
Created: 20-Jun-11 19:11
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
John B - RRS 21(a) specifically allows a boat to break a rule and be exonerated regardless of whether she was forced to break the rule. A classic example would be an inside boat entitled to mark room turning the mark quickly and having her stern swing and hit the outside boat. The other boat did not force her to turn quickly but the inside boat is exonerated for breaking RRS 16.1 because she is sailing within the mark room to which she is entitled.
Created: 20-Jun-11 19:38
Mark Wommack
Nationality: United States
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Thanks John. I now understand turns back on. I didn't see how Yellow could call for 18.a mark room because she never completes her tack.It never occurred to me that 18.a could apply to a boat that had not yet obtained starboard tack right of way. Your point is that 18.a gives Yellow mark room and 21 negates 15. So all Yellow has to do is pass HTW with enough time for Green to respond. I'll bet 90% of skippers and tacticians don't know that.
Created: 20-Jun-11 20:15
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
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John wrote
Yellow was not forced to tack when she did – but as soon as she passes HTW, she breaks R 13, yet the way 18.2(a) works in this scenario, the action of breaking a rule creates the exoneration. I find nowhere else in the rules when exoneration is granted except where a boat is forced to break a rule by the improper action of another boat.
Yes, Y breaks R13 after passing head to wind and before assuming a close hauled course. But the moment Y passes head to wind, she is entitled to mark-room and R21(a) exonerates her.
If G failed to give Y mark-room, then G would be penalised. However, if by Y breaking R13 G was unable to give Y mark-room and therefore was compelled to break R18.1(a), then G should be exonerated under R64.1(a)
But what of R14? If, when Y tacks at position3, G is unable to avoid contact, then G does not break R14. However, if it is reasonably possible for Y to avoid contact by bearing away behind G at position 2 instead of tacking, then, by tacking, Y breaks R14 while she is neither a ROW boat or entitled to mark-room. If there is no damage or injury, would Y be exonerated under R14(b) because she is initially entitled to room under R15?
Created: 20-Jun-11 20:23
Mark Wommack
Nationality: United States
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Oh my. Imagine another boat to windward of Green (or 2) unaware of Yellow's maneuver. Imagine 20+ knots of wind and 35+ foot boats. Imagine a hard mark. This could end badly. It seems insane that Y would be entitled to mark room simply by passing head to wind.
Created: 20-Jun-11 21:40
Hugh Wylam
Nationality: United Kingdom
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What a great question from John!
If I have understood the discussion above correctly then I can see real headaches for umpires!
Imagine a Team Race with a starboard hand rounding and a 2 length zone.
At position 1 Yellow is on starboard on a course to pass just behind Green - no issues
At position 3 Yellow as RoW boat is altering course - Green is still safe as she is protected by 16.1
At position 4, as Yellow passes head to wind, Green becomes instantaneously overlapped outside boat and required to give Mark Room by 18.2(a)
As long as Yellow thinks the umpires have read this post, she can hunt and stick her nose in as long as she makes sure she passes head to wind before a chance of contact.
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RRS 13 applies, but it does not negate 18.
From the diagram it appears that G was giving mark room. If that's the case and Y made contact anyway then I think she was sailing outside of the mark room she was entitled to, so broke rule 13 & 14 and is not exonerated for either. G broke 14 (assuming it was reasonably possible for her to avoid contact) but is exonerated by 14(b).
In this incident, RRS 18.3 never applied. To answer John Ball’s question requires a scenario where RRS 18.2(b) did not or had ceased to apply, Green tacked further away from Yellow or Yellow was further astern when both boats were on port tack (i.e. Green did not break RRS 15) and Yellow completed her tack (did not break RRS 13). Then, RRS 18.1(a) would apply. John, do you want to submit a different scenario and diagram?
John B., (oops) Rick, I’m with’ya all the way except for ...“Because it was not reasonably possible for Yellow to have avoided contact with Green, Yellow did not break RRS 14.”
It’s not clear to me that Yellow, prioritizing missing Green over missing the mark, couldn’t have done so.
Doing the math on how fast various types of boats travel in two seconds, we can determine how much distance there must be between AS's leeward side (aka green, the boat tacking onto starboard) and the bow of BP (aka yellow, the port tack boat), when AS completes their tack onto starboard:
At 3 knots of speed -- a Laser upwind at max speed:
(Here's a google search you can use to see the relationship between knots and feet per second.)
That means if a Laser completes their tack onto starboard with over half a boatlength of clearance, they've broken rule 15. Same for a 420 or Vanguard 15 does so with a boatlength of clearance (and more if they're planing).
I'm not a judge, merely a competitor, but there are lots of races where dinghies are completing their tacks onto starboard with 10-17 feet of clearance between them and a port tacker. The way our sport could evolve, especially in team racing, is a lot of protests by port tackers ducking starboard boats. Port risks nothing by filing such a protest. This could lead to an increase in the number of protests filed. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it seems to be how case 27 and the math play out.
Also, case 27 states that 2 seconds isn't enough, but not how much time IS enough. Is it 3 seconds? 4? This matters because the math dictates the gap that AS/green needs to have coming out of their tack. For example, 4 seconds means a 420 or V15 needs to complete their tack with a two-boatlength gap on port's bow.
Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting anything here.
It's also surprising the number of degrees that port needs to bear away hasn't come up yet. There's a big difference between how much time port/yellow needs to execute a dip if they're bow-to-bow with starboard/green (John's example) versus bow-to-midpoint (case 27). In John's example, port needs to dip ~90 degrees once they complete their bearaway. In case 27, port needs to duck ~20 degrees. Bearing away 90 degrees in two seconds is indeed tough, but bearing away 20 degrees in two seconds is quite doable for a competent, seamanlike team.
My point is, any discussion of whether rule 15 was violated needs to include a discussion of how many degrees port/yellow needs to bear away once blue/starboard has completed their tack. It really can't be determined by "speed and distance", which are the only two variables that case 27 mentions.
Am I missing something?
18.2 (a) doesn't apply as green was clear ahead when she entered the zone.
18.2 (d) applies as green passed head to wind inside the zone. So, 18.2 (b) and (c) don't apply.
18.2 (e) is irrelevant in this situation.
18.2 (f) doesn't apply as the inside overlap wasn't obtained by tacking to windward of the other boat.
18.3 doesn't apply because yellow hasn't been on starboard since entering the zone.
18.4 doesn't apply as the diagram doesn't go that far...
Green has completed her tack, so the question is Did she give yellow time and opportunity to keep clear? Rule 13 seems only come into this because yellow insisted on sailing round the mark, when feasibly she could have kept clear by sailing to leeward of the mark.
There is no obligation for green to give yellow mark room, so yellow may well have been able to complete her tack and keep clear if she had gone below the mark. (I'm a novice IOM sailor, so would say conditions and boat speed will be relevant.)
Rule 18.2(d) applies here. When the boats enter the zone on the same tack, Green is clear ahead and therefore entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b). However, when Green passes head to wind, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. When Yellow passes head to wind, rule 18.2(a) applies.
Green might be able to successfully argue that Yellow broke RRS 10 as she was (or would have been) forced to alter course while ROW in anticipation of having to give Yellow the room required once Yellow crossed HTW, i.e. that Yellow was not keeping clear while still on port tack as Green could not sail her course while RRS 10 applied and RRS 18 did not. Provided that you find Green did all they could to give Yellow room starting at the instant Yellow crossed HTW you could conclude that Green would have had to act even sooner to give the required room.
Maybe both boats have broken rules and neither is exonerated. Yellow's breach of RRS 10 did not compel Green to break RRS 18.2(a) so Green is not exonerated under 64.1(a). Yellow is not exonerated for breaking RRS 10 under RRS 21 as she was not entitled to room while luffing up and neither RRS 21 or 64.1(a) apply.
A parallel situation would be a leeward boat subject to RRS 17 sailing above proper course and a windward boat not keeping clear. Both break rules and neither is exonerated.
Edited to add, I think your last post analysis of Position 3 answers my question. Y's proper course after passing HTW is to come down to the mark so she's within her mark room entitlement as long as she does that.
Position 3;
As John Christman observed.
The strange thing is it appears that if Yellow sails her proper course after passing through head to wind she can't get disqualified for breaking rule 13 as she will be exonerated under rule 21.
There is doubt that Yellow obtained an overlap IN TIME for Green to respond.
The rule does not specifically assign IN TIME to the zone boundary, although we customarily apply it there.
Hence, potentially DSQ Yellow for this violation, IF not DSQ'ing Green for tacking too close for Yellow to respond.
Or both.
This would be a conclusion. Not a fact.
The World Sailing Judges Manual - K22 Onus of Satisfying the Protest Committee has relevant information regarding rule 18.2(e).
There are no World Sailing Cases that includes rule 18.2(e), but USA Appeal US92, RYA Case RYA1992-09 and RYA Case RYA2002-15 contain guidance on applying 18.2(e).
Because they're in the zone and rule 18 applies between them, they can be overlapped even if on opposite tacks. So the overlap is established as G is tacking (between 1 and 2), plenty of time for G to respond to her obligation to give mark room.
Y is on starboard tack as soon as she passes HTW (definition of Tack), but she's still tacking until she reaches a close-hauled course (RRS 13). As long as G leaves sufficient room for Y to tack onto the layline and round the mark I think she's meeting her obligation to provide mark room - which is to say that G needs to remain at least a little more than one boat-width above the layline and allow room for Y's stern to swing as she rounds. Y shouldn't require additional room to weather of the layline to complete her tack, I don't think.
Yeah, I knew I looked at that before and forgot. They're also on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, and Y's proper course is to tack at the mark, so you're right, they're not overlapped until they're on the same tack.
At position 2, after Green passes through head to wind, Yellow’s obligation to give Green mark-room under rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. (see rule 18.2(d) or rule 18.1(b) ). A new obligation under another part of rule 18 does NOT apply between positions 2 and 3 because Green and Yellow are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, (see rule 18.1(a) ).
In this case if you just look at position 3, it is all on Green provided, after passing through head to wind, Yellow continues to sail within the mark-room she is allowed under 18.2(a).. Yellow breaks rule 13 and rule 14 but is exonerated under rule 21. Even if she hits the mark and breaks rule 31 she is exonerated under rule 21.
If 18.2(a) did not apply, then Green could force Yellow to leeward of the mark. The purpose of Rule 18 is to enable boats to round the mark in a fair and orderly manner. It would be quite chaotic if Rule 18 allowed Green to force Yellow to the wrong side of the mark.
Mark, if G was clear ahead when they entered the zone that's exactly what G could force Y to do, isn't it? (On second thought I guess not - leeward ROW...)
Or if G entered the zone on stbd and Y was tacking in the zone.
Position 1 in the diagram shows G clear ahead of Y by 1-1/2 boat lengths. If we move both boats back two boat lengths, G's bow would be entering the zone and she would be clear ahead of Y. 18.2(b) gives G mark-room.
When G passes head to wind, 18.2(d) turns off 18.2(b) and (c) and G no longer has mark-room. As the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat, rule 18 does not apply..
When Y passes head to wind at position3, both boats are on the same tack. rule 18 applies as none of the exemptions of 18.1 are satisfied. Rule 18.2(a) applies and Y is entitled to mark-room.
However, if we assume that G is sailing faster than Y and the boats are overlapped when G enters the zone (at position1 minus 2 boat lengths), Rule 18.2(b) applies and Y is inside with mark-room.
When G passes head to wind, Rule 18.2(d) does not apply and 18.2(b) and (c) therefore do not get switched off by 18.2(d). However, Rule 18 no longer applies as the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat.
When Y passes head to wind at position 3, Rule 18 is switched on again and Y is entitled to mark-room. Y is leeward boat and not entitled to room to tack.
IF that's true then:
If there is no overlap Green is entitled to mark-room, but that does not include room to tack because she is not the inside boat. 18 turns off when Green passes head-to-wind and Green must keep clear until she reached close-hauled. After that it's a simple port/starboard issue. If Green is in a position to complete the tack without fouling Yellow, then Yellow will need to either duck or tack away. Yellow should have recognized this at position 1, which is when Green starts her tack. Yellow is not obligated to keep clear until Green reaches close-hauled, and Green is obligated to give room to keep clear, but Yellow's late tack and luff to shoot the mark isn't keeping clear. Further, because she never reaches close-hauled, Yellow has no rights as a starboard tack boat.
If Green cannot reach close-hauled without fouling Yellow, Green cannot tack.
If there WAS an overlap, then Yellow is entitled to mark-room which includes room to tack because she is to windward and inside of Green as defined by mark-room.
Is there a case that talks about rule 18 turning back on? If this is the case I need to rethink everything I thought I knew about rule 18.
I think that's a common misconception but I don't think there's anything in the rules that says that once 18 is off it stays off. The terms of the rule still apply.
Rule 18 turns back on in this scenario when:
From that point Y is inside boat and 18.2(a) applies.
RRS 21(a) specifically allows a boat to break a rule and be exonerated regardless of whether she was forced to break the rule. A classic example would be an inside boat entitled to mark room turning the mark quickly and having her stern swing and hit the outside boat. The other boat did not force her to turn quickly but the inside boat is exonerated for breaking RRS 16.1 because she is sailing within the mark room to which she is entitled.
If G failed to give Y mark-room, then G would be penalised. However, if by Y breaking R13 G was unable to give Y mark-room and therefore was compelled to break R18.1(a), then G should be exonerated under R64.1(a)
But what of R14? If, when Y tacks at position3, G is unable to avoid contact, then G does not break R14. However, if it is reasonably possible for Y to avoid contact by bearing away behind G at position 2 instead of tacking, then, by tacking, Y breaks R14 while she is neither a ROW boat or entitled to mark-room. If there is no damage or injury, would Y be exonerated under R14(b) because she is initially entitled to room under R15?
If I have understood the discussion above correctly then I can see real headaches for umpires!