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Explaining Rule 18.1(b)
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
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National Judge
Umpire In Training
Regional Race Officer
0
I want to be able to explain why Rule 18.1(b) is required. I have searched these archives and unless I missed it, I did not find the explanation I seek. I searched the internet and found others looking for the same answer. I finally found a Sailing World article that Dick Rose authored in 2014 that explained why 18.1(b) is required. I want to run my understanding by this forum to make sure I got it. Here goes:
Case 132 states "a boat is on a beat to windward when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above.“ Please consider the diagram below. Rule 18.1(a) (between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward) doesn't apply because Yellow is not on a beat to windward according to Case 132. Rule 18.1(b) does apply because the proper course at the mark for Blue, but not for Yellow is to tack. Bottom line Rule 18 if off during the entire meeting between Blue and Yellow which includes Rule 18.3.18.1(b).jpg57.5 KB
Created: 20-Aug-10 21:33
Comments
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
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Jerry, Yellow in your diagram has overstood and thus IS on a beat to windward based on Case 132. It’s one of 132’s example. - Ang
Rule 18.1b covers a situation where one or both of these boats have overstood the mark and they are not more on a beat to windward anymore, but blue needs to tack.
Created: 20-Aug-10 21:49
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
Umpire In Training
Regional Race Officer
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Ang, I'm looking at Case 132 in the Case Book and it does not show the examples shown on your site. Plus it is missing the interpretation: "A boat is ‘on a beat to windward’ when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above."
Got it. In the four examples both boats are shown on a beat to windward on opposite tacks. Rule 18.1(a) applies. Can you share an example of when 18.1(b) applies?
Thanks,
Jerry
Created: 20-Aug-10 22:40
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
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Note that in the revision the definition of "on a beat to windward" is different for rule 42 than it is for rule 18.
Given the new definition with respect to rule 18 (which I think invalidates the 2014 Dick Rose explanation), I think we're back to Jerry's original question - what would be a scenario where two boats are on opposite tacks but not on a beat to windward, and the proper course at the mark would be for one but not both to tack?
Created: 20-Aug-10 22:46
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
1
Consider the following crazy scenario:
Purple is going from Yellow to Orange and will have to tack to sail her proper course;
Grey is going from Green to Orange and will not have to tack to sail her proper course;
Green, Yellow, and Blue are going from Turquoise to Orange
Green will not have to tack to sail her proper course;
Yellow and Blue will have to tack to sail their proper course;
All boats are rounding Orange to port.
All boats are in the zone
Applying RRS 18.1 to each pair, does RRS 18 apply and why?
Yellow and ...
Blue - No - 18.1(a) is true
Green - Yes - neither 18.1(a) or 18.1(b) is true
Grey - Yes - neither 18.1(a) or 18.1(b) is true
Purple - Yes - neither 18.1(a) or 18.1(b) is true, both will have to tack to sail their proper course - this is the one to really think about!
This purple x yellow scenario is a good point indeed!
Created: 20-Aug-11 00:33
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
Umpire In Training
Regional Race Officer
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Thanks John, your scenario is very helpful. What if grey was on a close reach instead of a beam reach? What would be her relationship with blue? I think 18.1(b) would be true?
18.1(a) applies to boats "on a beat to windward". I think this means 18.1(b) applies to between boats when one or both are not on a beat to windward. I cannot find a dictionary that defines a beat to windward. I have found several sites that indicate it means a close-hauled course towards the wind. Can a boat be overstood and on a beat to windward?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to fully understand 18.1(b).
Thanks,
Jerry
Created: 20-Aug-11 00:38
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
You decide whether a boat is on a "beat to windward" based on the guidance in World Sailing Case 132 in the Addition to the 2018 Supplement to the Case Book.
In answer to your specific questions
The situation between Grey and Blue would not change if Grey was on a close reach, at some point this transitions to 18.1(a) and 18.1(b) being true. Imagine how the situation changes as the Green mark is moved closer and closer to the Turquoise mark. Grey goes from a reaching leg to a beat to windward when the Green mark is on the layline to the Orange mark.
Yes, if a boat has overstood the close-hauled layline to the mark and is sailing below close-hauled she is still considered on a beat to windward.
Also, as you have noted, it is possible that both 18.1(a) and 18.1(b) are true. There is nothing that precludes that. Your original question is essentially when is 18.1(a) false and 18.1(b) true? Once people look at 18.1(a) and realize it is true they generally don't bother looking at 18.1(b) to see if it is true also.
Created: 20-Aug-11 01:49
Charles Darley
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
Regional Umpire
0
Yellow and purple is indeed the interesting one. I think if yellow cannot shoot the mark, she needs to tack twice. After the first tack yellow and purple are on the same tack so 18.1 a and b are not in force. Before yellow’s first tack i think rule 18 is off and 10 applies. My (slightly tortured) interpretation of 18.1b is that it requires the boats to be on opposite tacks at the mark when the proper course for one but not both is to tack.
Rule 24.2 also applies. Yellow should not push it.
Created: 20-Aug-11 12:18
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
Umpire In Training
Regional Race Officer
0
Putting it all together: Rule 18.1(b).jpg56 KB At position 1 rule 18.1(a) does not apply because green is not a beat to windward. Rule 18.1(b) does apply at position 1. At position 2 red has tacked in the zone turning on rule 18.3. Red does not get mark-room, 18.1(b). Rule 11 also applies at position 2 making red ROW, but if she causes green to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact, red will break rule 18.3. At position 3 red continues to be ROW, rule 11.
At position 2 green may slow down to go inside of red and red would then owe green mark-room. But, I think in this scenario green's best option is to remain outside of red.
Have I got this right? Does anyone have a better example of 18.1(b)?
Thanks,
Jerry
Created: 20-Aug-11 14:15
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
Remember that the boats might both be racing under the rules but in different races at different clubs but both races use the same mark but approach it from different directions. Both boats are still bound by the rules despite being in tow different races and so 18.1 b might apply between them as they approach the mark as they might be rounding it coming from different directions and leaving it heading in different directions.
Created: 20-Aug-31 03:27
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Judge
International Umpire
International Race Officer
0
In the diagram above when in position 2 both boats have tacked they are both on the same tack, 18 applies as does 18.2.a the inside boat has mark-room surely.
Created: 23-Jul-13 09:00
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
18.3 Passing Head to Wind in the Zone If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Red is in the zone of a mark to be left to port.
Red passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark.
Green has been on starboard tack since entering the zone.
Rule 18.3 applies.
When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Red is not entitled to mark room.
Once rule 18.3 applies the only way for a entitlement to mark room to arise is if the boat that entered the zone on starboard becomes overlapped inside the boat that passed head to wind.
Created: 23-Jul-13 09:50
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Case 132
"A boat is ‘on a beat to windward’ when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above."
Thanks,
Jerry
Looks the same as we have online.
Thanks,
Jerry
Given the new definition with respect to rule 18 (which I think invalidates the 2014 Dick Rose explanation), I think we're back to Jerry's original question - what would be a scenario where two boats are on opposite tacks but not on a beat to windward, and the proper course at the mark would be for one but not both to tack?
Applying RRS 18.1 to each pair, does RRS 18 apply and why?
18.1(a) applies to boats "on a beat to windward". I think this means 18.1(b) applies to between boats when one or both are not on a beat to windward. I cannot find a dictionary that defines a beat to windward. I have found several sites that indicate it means a close-hauled course towards the wind. Can a boat be overstood and on a beat to windward?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to fully understand 18.1(b).
Thanks,
Jerry
In answer to your specific questions
Also, as you have noted, it is possible that both 18.1(a) and 18.1(b) are true. There is nothing that precludes that. Your original question is essentially when is 18.1(a) false and 18.1(b) true? Once people look at 18.1(a) and realize it is true they generally don't bother looking at 18.1(b) to see if it is true also.
Rule 24.2 also applies. Yellow should not push it.
At position 1 rule 18.1(a) does not apply because green is not a beat to windward. Rule 18.1(b) does apply at position 1.
At position 2 red has tacked in the zone turning on rule 18.3. Red does not get mark-room, 18.1(b). Rule 11 also applies at position 2 making red ROW, but if she causes green to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact, red will break rule 18.3.
At position 3 red continues to be ROW, rule 11.
At position 2 green may slow down to go inside of red and red would then owe green mark-room. But, I think in this scenario green's best option is to remain outside of red.
Have I got this right? Does anyone have a better example of 18.1(b)?
Thanks,
Jerry
If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to
wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark,
she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since
entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact
and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped
inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does
not apply between them.
Red is in the zone of a mark to be left to port.
Red passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark.
Green has been on starboard tack since entering the zone.
Rule 18.3 applies.
When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Red is not entitled to mark room.
Once rule 18.3 applies the only way for a entitlement to mark room to arise is if the boat that entered the zone on starboard becomes overlapped inside the boat that passed head to wind.