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When does 18 turn off
Peter Vancolen
Nationality: United States
0
Light wind, light sea state or current, one design. Other boats close by not drawn. B & Y downwind, port tack. B dead down, Y broad reach. 4 - B has tiller hard over to round and avoid 5 - B hits the mark 6 - B contacts Y, no damage When does room to round turn off and Y get Leeward ROW?
Created: 20-Dec-23 23:14
Comments
Matt Bounds
Certifications:
International Race Officer
National Judge
1
Without going into a whole lot of detail, I would venture to say that Y broke 18.2(b) at position 4 since it appears that B was compelled to hit the mark. If insufficient mark room is given, does RRS 18 turn off? (Last sentence of 18.1, "Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given.")
But to your question, at position 6, the course of either boat is not influenced by the presence of the mark (assuming the next mark is upwind); RRS 18 should be off, my above question notwithstanding. B is the keep-clear boat (RRS 11). Y is constrained by RRS 16.1. A lot depends on the maneuverability of the boats in light air.
Created: 20-Dec-24 01:45
Charles Darley
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
Regional Umpire
3
First inclination is to go straight into umpire mode and penalise yellow for not giving mark room. I think conracts at 5 and 6 part of the same incident.
Now read the question. Y is always leeward right of way but constrained by rule 18. Rule 18.1 says rule 18 no longer applies when mark room has been given. Mark room was not given so does 18 apply until neither boat is in the zone? If so, what might be the consequence?
Created: 20-Dec-24 02:02
Al Sargent
1
At position 6, Blue's stern is still overlapped (barely) with the leeward mark. It's hard to claim that "mark room has been given" per 18.1 when a boat is still overlapped with the mark.
I'm assuming that we're talking about a fleet race here, but it's worth noting that Appendix C (match racing rules) 2.9 states that "Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when the boat entitled to mark-room is on the next leg and the mark is astern of her." If this were a match race, Yellow would be fouling at position 6 since the mark is not yet astern of Blue.
More broadly, it seems like this language from Appendix C would be worth including in the 2025 edition of the fleet racing rules, assuming anyone here has any influence on that process.
Created: 20-Dec-24 03:21
Tribhuwan Jaiswal
Nationality: India
Certifications:
National Judge
National Race Officer
1
At position 4 B has not been given sufficient mark room to keep clear. So Y breaks 18.2(b).
Going further as the boats pass through position 5 to 6 the boats as appears in the diagram had completed rounding the mark. The contact at position 6 in my opinion is a separate incident with obligation of B under RRS 11. Here as per the diagram it seems B has not sailed, after passing the mark, in seamanlike manner and failed to keep clear of B.
Created: 20-Dec-24 03:52
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
A lot of things going on here. 1. Yellow must give blue room to round the mark in a seaman like manner. Rule 18.2(d). Does not "turn off" until they are no longer in the zone (See definition of zone) or "passes" head to wind. 2. Once outside the zone, Yellow is passing blue to leeward therefore cannot sail above her proper course rule 17. 3. Yellow has not given Blue mark room as Blue is unable to maneuver in a seamanlike manner, attempts to avoid contact however is unable. (See definition room) Blue is exonerated from touching the mark rule 21. Yellow failed to keep clear and avoid contact rule 14
Created: 20-Dec-24 04:55
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Mark room ends at a line, perpendicular to the course to the next mark, intersecting with the mark. Mark room may end sooner, e.g.when the outside boat has given mark room, it may be reinstated if the outside boat approaches back into the "safety area" (defined as the "channel along which the inside boat may pass with mark room"). Mark room is no longer in place even though the boats are inside the "zone" if the boats have passed the perpendicular/intersecting line.
Created: 20-Dec-24 08:38
P
Greg Wilkins
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
I think that even if 18 doesn't apply, Y has broken 16 between points 5 and 6. Y is changing course and thus needs to give B room to keep clear. B is helm hard over and thus changing course as fast as she can in the most seaman like way she can. Y has rights to sail high, even luffing B, but she can't do that so quickly that B cannot keep-clear. So regardless of the mark, Y should be DSQ.
This doesn't do B much good as she needs Y to have broken 18 so she can be exonerated for hitting the mark.
B hit the mark long before either boat had cleared it, so the question about 18 doesn't depend on when mark-room ends. It hinges on if B was able to round the mark without hitting either the mark or Y. If she hit the mark because she was avoiding contact with Y, then Y did not give mark-room and thus broke 18 as well, which would be a good finding to make so that B can be exonerated from hitting the mark (which the breaking of 16 by Y doesn't do).
"Because UM8 [Blue] was entitled to mark-room, she was entitled to room, as defined by the definition Room,
to leave the mark to port,
to sail to the mark, and
to round the mark onto a close-hauled course"
@5, Mark-room was not given as Blue was forced to touch the mark, @6, Mark-room has yet to be given, as Blue is not yet on a close-hauled course and not clearly passed the mark.
Therefore, 18 still applies between Blue and Yellow @6 and for a moment longer.
Also, @5 and @6, Yellow, being ROW and changing course, Yellow failed to give Blue room to keep-clear as required by 16.1
@5, Yellow's course change forced Blue to touch the mark, breaking rule 31. Blue's room to keep clear of Yellow includes space for Blue to comply with rule 31.
@6, Yellow's course change resulted in contact while Blue's tiller was "hard over" and thus Blue was turning as quickly as she could to keep clear of Yellow. Yellow failed to provide Blue room to keep clear.
Created: 20-Dec-24 14:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Peter re: "When does room to round turn off and Y get Leeward ROW?"
I wanted to point out a fallacy in your question above. Based on the FF's and the drawing you provided, Yellow is ROW boat by RRS 11 during this entire incident.
So, "When does ... Y get Leeward ROW?" She appears to have gotten it sometime before position #1 assuming both boats were both on port.
RRS 18 limits into what space Yellow can sail while Yellow exercises her leeward ROW. Rules of Section A & B apply at the same time as Section C rules, unless the rule specifically states certain rules do not apply (as in RRS 19.2(c) for example).
Created: 20-Dec-24 16:52
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
The question arises: If outside leeward boat OL has ROW over inside boat IW continuously, before during and after mark rounding, is OL restricted to initially giving IW room, per 15, when 18 turns off? That is, has OL acquired rights? In a typical tight mark rounding situation - two or multiple boats - it would seem that 11 violation could be claimed by any number of boats, even without any contact.
Created: 20-Dec-24 17:12
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
The question arises:
If outside leeward boat OL has ROW over inside boat IW continuously, before during and after mark rounding, is OL restricted to initially giving IW room, per 15, when 18 turns off? That is, has OL acquired rights?
No. OL is ROW boat from positions #1 through #6. When 18 ceases to apply between Blue and Yellow at some point beyond position #6, Yellow (OL) has not "acquired ROW".
We do not see when Yellow (OL) acquired ROW by RRS 11, but it apparently started applying between them prior to position #1, and they are so far apart, RRS 15 is not an issue.
In a typical tight mark rounding situation - two or multiple boats - it would seem that 11 violation could be claimed by any number of boats, even without any contact.
Yes, it is typical in a wheel of boats rounding a leeward mark, that there can be boats that break RRS 11, but they are then exonerated by RRS 43.1(b) if they are sailing within the room or mark-room they are entitled to.
Created: 20-Dec-24 19:17
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
Until they aren't. Which is my point. Suddenly several boats may be in violation, unless they initially get a pass.
Created: 20-Dec-24 22:05
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
Take the same diagram, but no mark contact and no boat contact. Instantly Blue switches from protected to victim/violator. If both boats sailed close hauled in parallel (as is normal) Blue would not be keeping clear of Yellow. Must Blue, due to proximity, immediately luff above close hauled before Yellow shows any intent to luff above her proper course? Mark room requirements do not include room for Blue's transition.
Created: 20-Dec-24 22:21
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
-2
The way it is depicted,. Blue is ahead of yellow Yellow is over taking blue. Not only is yellow required to give room at the Mark, she cannot sail above her proper course being the overtaking vessel, she does not have luffing rights. Rule 17. Many comments on this post claim that yellow has luffing rights. I do not see this. Clearly Yellow is overtaking to leeward.
Created: 20-Dec-24 23:26
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, you referenced RRS 17 and “overtaking vessel”, a phrase which does not exist in 17. Maybe you can reread RRS 17 and find the moment in the drawing that you believe 17 begins to apply and use the words of rule 17 to explain why?
Philip, re: “Instantly Blue switches from protected to victim/violator.”
Blue isn’t in such a precarious spot as it might seem.
Blue is obligated to keep-clear of Yellow by RRS 11 during this entire scenario. From #3-#6, she is keeping clear of Yellow as much as she can while meeting her other rule obligations, which includes rule 31.
Yellow is in a constant state of course change from #3-#6, therefore between 3-6 Yellow is also in a constant state of giving Blue new room to keep-clear in response by rule 16.1 in addition to mark-room.
So, just past #6, if there was no contact with boats or marks as you say, Blue continues to be obligated to keep clear, which means keep enough room between herself and Yellow so that Yellow can change course without immediately making contact.
However, if Yellow was so close to Blue when mark-room ceases to apply (Blue’s tiller hard-over until #6), that Blue can not luff away from Yellow without making contact, then Yellow broke 16.1 during her last course change that put her that close to Blue. (PS: Note that in contrast to RRS 15, RRS 16.1 does not use the word “initially”).
If Blue has the space to maneuver to turn to windward without making contact with Yellow, then Blue has to do what she can, in a seamanlike way, to keep clear of Yellow.
Created: 20-Dec-26 16:36
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
Angelo. Thank you for your patience. I acknowledge that you are aware of the hierarchy of the rules, however I shall reiterate for clarity. Part one rules are general rules to establish "Right of Way", however they are limited by part two, three and four. Rule 11 leeward boat has right of way however is limited in her actions by rule 17. These rules come into play when a vessel is overtaking another. An "overtaking vessel" is a vessel which was "clear astern" and is now, "overlapped". If a vessel is overtaking on the windward side, they can expect to be luffed. RRS 11. If a vessel is overtaking on the leeward side, RRS 11 makes them the right of way vessel however their rights are limited by RRS 17 and may not sail above her proper course. A vessel clear astern must keep clear of a vessel clear ahead RRS 12 Simply put, an "overtaking vessel" has no rights over the vessel that they are overtaking. (Colregs covers this too) With respect to the issue, Blue is ahead of yellow entering the zone. Yellow moves to within 2 hull lengths of blue and cannot sail above her proper course RRS 17 Yellow has not given blue enough room at the mark. RRS 18 Blue is exonerated from hitting the mark RRS 43 Should yellow wish to point higher, after rounding the mark, they must do so and promptly sail astern of blue. RRS 17 Lastly, the restrictions of RRS 18 restricts both boats until one of the leaves the zone as Mark Room has not been given rule 18 applies until; that point. It is important to keep in mind that even though leeward is the right of way vessel (part 1), her actions may be limited by the method by they became the leeward vessel (Parts 2, 3 and 4).
Created: 20-Dec-28 21:25
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Mark .. thanks for the increased detail into your thoughts as it is helpful.
You say that ...
"An "overtaking vessel" is a vessel which was "clear astern" and is now, "overlapped". .. then later ..
"Blue is ahead of yellow entering the zone. Yellow moves to within 2 hull lengths of blue and cannot sail above her proper course RRS 17"
Reexamining the drawing .. at what position do you see that Yellow is "clear astern" of Blue?
It is not depicted in the diagram where Yellow was clear astern . I am taking liberty in assuming that she was, as she is coming towards the mark on a broad reach and blue is DDW which is a slower point of sail. That speculation aside, it is unreasonable to expect that both boats are overlapped all the way from the previous Mark. The diagram also shows blue entering the zone first followed closely by Yellow then yellow ahead of blue after they round the Mark indicating that yellow is traveling faster than blue and yellow on the outside which is a longer distance which, at the same speed, would put yellow behind blue not infront. As soon as the criteria of RRS 17 are met, (clear astern then overlapped and within two hull lengths to leeward - indicating that she is overtaking to leeward) the leeward boat cannot sail above proper course. Yellow does not have luffing rights on blue. And.... Blue must not sail below her proper course. I am taking liberty in assuming that yellow was clear astern prior to the position indicated in the diagram.
Created: 20-Dec-29 01:10
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, in this last response, I can now see 2 significant issues with your rule 17 application.
1) One can not apply rule 17 when there are no facts found or given regarding the spacing, orientation and tacks of the boats when the overlap began.
2) It appears you are misapplying the “within two of her hull lengths” measure in RRS 17.
RRS 17 states,
“If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack,...”.
The transition from clear astern to overlapped on the same tack MUST occur when the boats are WITHIN 2HL’s. You seem to be applying the rule such that the overlap can occur at a far distance and that RRS 17 turns-on when they are within 2HL’s and overlapped. That is not what RRS 17 says.
Looking at the drawing, Blue and Yellow are nearly 2BL’s apart at #1. If we added just one position before #1, a #0 position at the same angles and speed, Blue and Yellow would be just over 2BL’s apart and already overlapped and therefore Yellow did not become overlapped within 2BL’s. RRS 17 does not apply.
If this was my decision write-up, I would have either added the position 0 to the drawing or stated as a Fact Found when and how overlap occurred .
Created: 20-Dec-29 02:06
Peter Vancolen
Nationality: United States
0
Let me help here, Yellow was clear astern prior to the zone
Created: 20-Dec-29 08:06
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Peter that is still not enough. Allow me to ask the question in a way that will get us there, given your new fact that Yellow was clear astern at some position outside of the zone.
Q: At the singularmoment in time that Yellow becomes overlapped to leeward with Blue, from clear astern and on the same tack as Blue, what is the distance between the boats and what was their positions and orientations? Specifically, where, when and how did this leeward-overlap on the same tack occur?
PS: Maybe you can add the position to the drawing showing the moment that the leeward overlap on the same tack occurred? At position #1, Yellow is 2BL’s forward of clear astern of Blue (measuring from Yellow’s bow to Blue’s stern-perpendicular).
Created: 20-Dec-29 13:32
Peter Vancolen
Nationality: United States
0
Created: 20-Dec-29 14:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Peter .. here is your drawing back with some additional analysis lines and figures using the boat model's hull-length as the scale.
Q: Does Rule 17 apply at positions #3, #4 and #5?
Created: 20-Dec-29 17:38
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
Hello Angelo. RRS 17 set conditions. "boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack". When these conditions are met, it describes a vessel overtaking from leeward. The intent of the rule is to prevent collision. The vessel being overtaken has rights. These rights vary by how the vessel is being overtaken. This is also in line with the COLREGs. An overtaking vessel does not have rights over the vessel they are overtaking. RRS 11 gives luffing rights to the leeward vessel and us useful if being overtake to windward. RRS 17 limits the rights of the vessel if she is overtaking from leeward. This is in the spirit of "When boats meet" who must "Give way", who" must "stand on". The conditions of RRS 17, when met, do not permit a vessel, who is overtaking to luff a windward vessel. Enough said. This is the way I have sailed for the passed 50 + years, this is the way I will continue to view RRS 17. I believe that it follows the intent of RRS 2. + Happy New Year.
Created: 20-Dec-29 20:50
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Mark .. a Happy New Year to you as well. I want to return to the words of RRS17 and the RRS defined-terms referenced within it. Also at the bottom of this comment, are some cases and appeals.
This is how I interpret RRS 17.
17. ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
Combined, RRS 17's first and last sentences establish 6 criteria for it to apply between boats (the required answers for RRS 17 to apply are shown in {})
Has the boat "become[s] overlapped" with another boat? {yes}
Was the boat clear astern when she “becomes overlapped”? {yes}
Is the overlap established to leeward of the overlapped boat? {yes}
Are the boats within 2 hull lengths? {yes}
Are the boats on the same tack? {yes}
Is the windward boat required to keep clear by RRS 13 while the overlap begins? {no}
If all 6 answers above match, then RRS 17 begins to apply between the boats. If any of them do not match, it does not.
My approach would be to first focus on #1 and conclude that, based on the definition of overlap (Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap), a boat is either overlapped or not overlapped like an on/off switch .. and as such, for each overlap, a boat "becomes overlapped" once in a single instant in time at the moment the overlap begins.
Therefore, for a given overlap between boats, RRS 17's applicability between the boats is determined at the moment the overlap begins.
Applying this to Peter's drawing below, Yellow is clear astern of Blue at #3 and overlapped with Blue at #4. So, Yellow "becomes overlapped" at some point between #3 and #4.
If we assume that the overlap occurred in between #3-#4, before Yellow gybes,
RRS 17 does not apply because Yellow and Blue are on opposite tacks (test-5 above) when Yellow "becomes overlapped".
If we assume that overlap occurred at #4, just as Yellow gybes onto port,
RRS 17 does not apply because Yellow and Blue are not within 2 hull lengths (test-4 above) when Yellow "becomes overlapped".
Later, if we ask whether or not RRS 17 applies at position #5 when Yellow and Blue are within 2 hull lengths and tests 3-6 are satisfied, I would conclude that RRS 17 does not apply because when Yellow reaches 2 hull lengths of Blue, Yellow does not "become overlapped" (test-1 above) from being clear astern (test-2). Rather, Yellow is sailing within an existing overlap with Blue.
This leads us back to the previous conclusion that the place to look for RRS 17’s applicability is at the moment the overlap begins when a boat “becomes overlapped”.
===================================================================== I believe the above interpretation is consistent with [emphasis added]:
Case 7: "Rule 17 applied to L because, as the diagram shows, she had been clear astern before the boats became overlapped and was within two of her hull lengths of W when the overlap began."
Case 13: "L had been clear astern of W and was within two of her hull lengths of W when she became overlapped to leeward of W. Therefore, she was required by rule 17 to sail no higher than her proper course."
RYA 2008-07: "Rule 17 placed a proper course limitation on the RS500 when the overlap first began."
CAN 54: "A leeward boat which establishes an overlap more than two boat lengths to leeward and maintains that overlap is not restricted to sailing no higher than her proper course."
TR Call F3: "Rule 17 begins to apply when the boats become overlapped."
TR Call G3: "When she gybes back onto starboard tack, rule 17 does not apply." [Ang comment: I believe the reason that rule 17 does not apply is that she does not "become overlapped" when she gybes back. She is sailing under the existing overlap].
Created: 20-Dec-31 19:18
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
1
First, Happy New Year to everyone!
Next, I am hoping that the following may illustrate the application R 17 in the presented scenario.
Ang put into words what I hope this diagram shows.
Y becomes the RoW boat when she jibes to S at pos. 2. Y becomes Overlapped with B roughly at Pos. 3+ (see the Grey boats; Def. Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap). Y continues to be Overlapped with B through-out the duration including the jibe to P and Mark rounding.
Question: Does R 17 limitation become applicable to S (turned to P) in this situation? Answer: No.
When Y establishes her Overlap with B (within 2 BL) from astern, R 17 did not apply between them. They are on opposite tacks. This Overlap continues till it is broken. The jibe does not break it. Only the Rule change for Y is from R 10 to R 11. The 3 BL distance between them at Pos.4 has no bearing on the R 17 application. Y could jibe shortly (within 2 BL) after establishing her Overlap with B without evoking R 17 limitation, providing that the Overlap was not broken. Something like this:
Y has her R 16 obligations till 18 turns ON and then again when it turns OFF but that is outside of this scenario. If anyone would like an explanation of the 2 BL distance as it applies to R 17, check out TR Call F1. Well illustrated and explained.
Kim
Created: 21-Jan-06 13:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Kim .. thanks for adding that scenario-drawing to the discussion.
Funny, I was having an offline discussion with a very experienced judge about the different approaches in discussing RRS 17 (spurred by this thread) and how I might be more effective in doing so. I came up with the drawing below, where Blue does not break RRS 17 (the kissing-cousin of your scenario!).
It's one thing that I find really useful about this forum .. that we get to practice different approaches in talking about the rules and see which approaches resonate better. Sometimes there isn't one best-approach, as people receive information differently so I find having a quiver of approaches is really useful.
All this said, I do have some understanding of those who might read a more open door in RRS 17's wording. The word "becomes" can be interpreted, in some uses, as describing a span of time instead of a moment in time. When reading and listening and trying to understand what others are thinking, this seems to be the heart of it.
But like I spelled out in the earlier post, this is not consistent with the wording of RRS 17's first sentence and the available Cases, Calls and Appeals. "Becomes" refers to a moment and not a span of time.
Created: 21-Jan-06 17:06
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Ang,
How interesting the thoughts can ‘grow’. When I was making up the second diag (pink and purple boats), I almost added a question and change of course by pink to ask:
Both boats are approaching the Zone. When is the last time for pink/blue to luff purple/green? kim
Created: 21-Jan-08 07:36
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Kim, re: Q: “When is the last time for pink/blue to luff purple/green?”
Q’s as answers: :-)
Is it a port or stb rounding? Is it a single mark or part of a gate? In what direction is the rhumbline to the next mark?
Created: 21-Jan-09 13:58
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Ang, All the parameter are the same as the original scenario. I would not spend too much time on this. it really is a TR call A 6. thrown into this mix. Kim
But to your question, at position 6, the course of either boat is not influenced by the presence of the mark (assuming the next mark is upwind); RRS 18 should be off, my above question notwithstanding. B is the keep-clear boat (RRS 11). Y is constrained by RRS 16.1. A lot depends on the maneuverability of the boats in light air.
Now read the question. Y is always leeward right of way but constrained by rule 18. Rule 18.1 says rule 18 no longer applies when mark room has been given. Mark room was not given so does 18 apply until neither boat is in the zone? If so, what might be the consequence?
I'm assuming that we're talking about a fleet race here, but it's worth noting that Appendix C (match racing rules) 2.9 states that "Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when the boat entitled to mark-room is on the next leg and the mark is astern of her." If this were a match race, Yellow would be fouling at position 6 since the mark is not yet astern of Blue.
More broadly, it seems like this language from Appendix C would be worth including in the 2025 edition of the fleet racing rules, assuming anyone here has any influence on that process.
Going further as the boats pass through position 5 to 6 the boats as appears in the diagram had completed rounding the mark.
The contact at position 6 in my opinion is a separate incident with obligation of B under RRS 11. Here as per the diagram it seems B has not sailed, after passing the mark, in seamanlike manner and failed to keep clear of B.
1. Yellow must give blue room to round the mark in a seaman like manner. Rule 18.2(d). Does not "turn off" until they are no longer in the zone (See definition of zone) or "passes" head to wind.
2. Once outside the zone, Yellow is passing blue to leeward therefore cannot sail above her proper course rule 17.
3. Yellow has not given Blue mark room as Blue is unable to maneuver in a seamanlike manner, attempts to avoid contact however is unable. (See definition room)
Blue is exonerated from touching the mark rule 21.
Yellow failed to keep clear and avoid contact rule 14
Mark room may end sooner, e.g.when the outside boat has given mark room, it may be reinstated if the outside boat approaches back into the "safety area" (defined as the "channel along which the inside boat may pass with mark room").
Mark room is no longer in place even though the boats are inside the "zone" if the boats have passed the perpendicular/intersecting line.
This doesn't do B much good as she needs Y to have broken 18 so she can be exonerated for hitting the mark.
B hit the mark long before either boat had cleared it, so the question about 18 doesn't depend on when mark-room ends. It hinges on if B was able to round the mark without hitting either the mark or Y. If she hit the mark because she was avoiding contact with Y, then Y did not give mark-room and thus broke 18 as well, which would be a good finding to make so that B can be exonerated from hitting the mark (which the breaking of 16 by Y doesn't do).
"Because UM8 [Blue] was entitled to mark-room, she was entitled to room, as defined by the definition Room,
@5, Mark-room was not given as Blue was forced to touch the mark,
@6, Mark-room has yet to be given, as Blue is not yet on a close-hauled course and not clearly passed the mark.
Therefore, 18 still applies between Blue and Yellow @6 and for a moment longer.
Also, @5 and @6, Yellow, being ROW and changing course, Yellow failed to give Blue room to keep-clear as required by 16.1
I wanted to point out a fallacy in your question above. Based on the FF's and the drawing you provided, Yellow is ROW boat by RRS 11 during this entire incident.
So, "When does ... Y get Leeward ROW?" She appears to have gotten it sometime before position #1 assuming both boats were both on port.
RRS 18 limits into what space Yellow can sail while Yellow exercises her leeward ROW. Rules of Section A & B apply at the same time as Section C rules, unless the rule specifically states certain rules do not apply (as in RRS 19.2(c) for example).
In a typical tight mark rounding situation - two or multiple boats - it would seem that 11 violation could be claimed by any number of boats, even without any contact.
No. OL is ROW boat from positions #1 through #6. When 18 ceases to apply between Blue and Yellow at some point beyond position #6, Yellow (OL) has not "acquired ROW".
We do not see when Yellow (OL) acquired ROW by RRS 11, but it apparently started applying between them prior to position #1, and they are so far apart, RRS 15 is not an issue.
Yes, it is typical in a wheel of boats rounding a leeward mark, that there can be boats that break RRS 11, but they are then exonerated by RRS 43.1(b) if they are sailing within the room or mark-room they are entitled to.
Which is my point.
Suddenly several boats may be in violation, unless they initially get a pass.
Instantly Blue switches from protected to victim/violator.
If both boats sailed close hauled in parallel (as is normal) Blue would not be keeping clear of Yellow.
Must Blue, due to proximity, immediately luff above close hauled before Yellow shows any intent to luff above her proper course?
Mark room requirements do not include room for Blue's transition.
Yellow is over taking blue. Not only is yellow required to give room at the Mark, she cannot sail above her proper course being the overtaking vessel, she does not have luffing rights. Rule 17.
Many comments on this post claim that yellow has luffing rights. I do not see this. Clearly Yellow is overtaking to leeward.
Philip, re: “Instantly Blue switches from protected to victim/violator.”
Blue isn’t in such a precarious spot as it might seem.
So, just past #6, if there was no contact with boats or marks as you say, Blue continues to be obligated to keep clear, which means keep enough room between herself and Yellow so that Yellow can change course without immediately making contact.
However, if Yellow was so close to Blue when mark-room ceases to apply (Blue’s tiller hard-over until #6), that Blue can not luff away from Yellow without making contact, then Yellow broke 16.1 during her last course change that put her that close to Blue. (PS: Note that in contrast to RRS 15, RRS 16.1 does not use the word “initially”).
If Blue has the space to maneuver to turn to windward without making contact with Yellow, then Blue has to do what she can, in a seamanlike way, to keep clear of Yellow.
I acknowledge that you are aware of the hierarchy of the rules, however I shall reiterate for clarity.
Part one rules are general rules to establish "Right of Way", however they are limited by part two, three and four.
Rule 11 leeward boat has right of way however is limited in her actions by rule 17. These rules come into play when a vessel is overtaking another.
An "overtaking vessel" is a vessel which was "clear astern" and is now, "overlapped".
If a vessel is overtaking on the windward side, they can expect to be luffed. RRS 11.
If a vessel is overtaking on the leeward side, RRS 11 makes them the right of way vessel however their rights are limited by RRS 17 and may not sail above her proper course.
A vessel clear astern must keep clear of a vessel clear ahead RRS 12
Simply put, an "overtaking vessel" has no rights over the vessel that they are overtaking. (Colregs covers this too)
With respect to the issue,
Blue is ahead of yellow entering the zone. Yellow moves to within 2 hull lengths of blue and cannot sail above her proper course RRS 17
Yellow has not given blue enough room at the mark. RRS 18
Blue is exonerated from hitting the mark RRS 43
Should yellow wish to point higher, after rounding the mark, they must do so and promptly sail astern of blue. RRS 17
Lastly, the restrictions of RRS 18 restricts both boats until one of the leaves the zone as Mark Room has not been given rule 18 applies until; that point.
It is important to keep in mind that even though leeward is the right of way vessel (part 1), her actions may be limited by the method by they became the leeward vessel (Parts 2, 3 and 4).
You say that ...
Reexamining the drawing .. at what position do you see that Yellow is "clear astern" of Blue?
Def: Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
It is not depicted in the diagram where Yellow was clear astern . I am taking liberty in assuming that she was, as she is coming towards the mark on a broad reach and blue is DDW which is a slower point of sail.
That speculation aside, it is unreasonable to expect that both boats are overlapped all the way from the previous Mark.
The diagram also shows blue entering the zone first followed closely by Yellow then yellow ahead of blue after they round the Mark indicating that yellow is traveling faster than blue and yellow on the outside which is a longer distance which, at the same speed, would put yellow behind blue not infront.
As soon as the criteria of RRS 17 are met, (clear astern then overlapped and within two hull lengths to leeward - indicating that she is overtaking to leeward) the leeward boat cannot sail above proper course.
Yellow does not have luffing rights on blue. And....
Blue must not sail below her proper course.
I am taking liberty in assuming that yellow was clear astern prior to the position indicated in the diagram.
1) One can not apply rule 17 when there are no facts found or given regarding the spacing, orientation and tacks of the boats when the overlap began.
2) It appears you are misapplying the “within two of her hull lengths” measure in RRS 17.
RRS 17 states,
The transition from clear astern to overlapped on the same tack MUST occur when the boats are WITHIN 2HL’s. You seem to be applying the rule such that the overlap can occur at a far distance and that RRS 17 turns-on when they are within 2HL’s and overlapped. That is not what RRS 17 says.
Looking at the drawing, Blue and Yellow are nearly 2BL’s apart at #1. If we added just one position before #1, a #0 position at the same angles and speed, Blue and Yellow would be just over 2BL’s apart and already overlapped and therefore Yellow did not become overlapped within 2BL’s. RRS 17 does not apply.
If this was my decision write-up, I would have either added the position 0 to the drawing or stated as a Fact Found when and how overlap occurred .
Q: At the singular moment in time that Yellow becomes overlapped to leeward with Blue, from clear astern and on the same tack as Blue, what is the distance between the boats and what was their positions and orientations? Specifically, where, when and how did this leeward-overlap on the same tack occur?
PS: Maybe you can add the position to the drawing showing the moment that the leeward overlap on the same tack occurred? At position #1, Yellow is 2BL’s forward of clear astern of Blue (measuring from Yellow’s bow to Blue’s stern-perpendicular).
Q: Does Rule 17 apply at positions #3, #4 and #5?
RRS 17 set conditions. "boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack". When these conditions are met, it describes a vessel overtaking from leeward.
The intent of the rule is to prevent collision. The vessel being overtaken has rights. These rights vary by how the vessel is being overtaken. This is also in line with the COLREGs.
An overtaking vessel does not have rights over the vessel they are overtaking. RRS 11 gives luffing rights to the leeward vessel and us useful if being overtake to windward. RRS 17 limits the rights of the vessel if she is overtaking from leeward.
This is in the spirit of "When boats meet" who must "Give way", who" must "stand on".
The conditions of RRS 17, when met, do not permit a vessel, who is overtaking to luff a windward vessel.
Enough said. This is the way I have sailed for the passed 50 + years, this is the way I will continue to view RRS 17. I believe that it follows the intent of RRS 2.
+ Happy New Year.
This is how I interpret RRS 17.
Combined, RRS 17's first and last sentences establish 6 criteria for it to apply between boats (the required answers for RRS 17 to apply are shown in {})
s] overlapped" with another boat? {yes}If all 6 answers above match, then RRS 17 begins to apply between the boats. If any of them do not match, it does not.
My approach would be to first focus on #1 and conclude that, based on the definition of overlap (Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap), a boat is either overlapped or not overlapped like an on/off switch .. and as such, for each overlap, a boat "becomes overlapped" once in a single instant in time at the moment the overlap begins.
Therefore, for a given overlap between boats, RRS 17's applicability between the boats is determined at the moment the overlap begins.
Applying this to Peter's drawing below, Yellow is clear astern of Blue at #3 and overlapped with Blue at #4. So, Yellow "becomes overlapped" at some point between #3 and #4.
Later, if we ask whether or not RRS 17 applies at position #5 when Yellow and Blue are within 2 hull lengths and tests 3-6 are satisfied, I would conclude that RRS 17 does not apply because when Yellow reaches 2 hull lengths of Blue, Yellow does not "become overlapped" (test-1 above) from being clear astern (test-2). Rather, Yellow is sailing within an existing overlap with Blue.
This leads us back to the previous conclusion that the place to look for RRS 17’s applicability is at the moment the overlap begins when a boat “becomes overlapped”.
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I believe the above interpretation is consistent with [emphasis added]:
If anyone would like an explanation of the 2 BL distance as it applies to R 17, check out TR Call F1. Well illustrated and explained.
Kim
Funny, I was having an offline discussion with a very experienced judge about the different approaches in discussing RRS 17 (spurred by this thread) and how I might be more effective in doing so. I came up with the drawing below, where Blue does not break RRS 17 (the kissing-cousin of your scenario!).
It's one thing that I find really useful about this forum .. that we get to practice different approaches in talking about the rules and see which approaches resonate better. Sometimes there isn't one best-approach, as people receive information differently so I find having a quiver of approaches is really useful.
All this said, I do have some understanding of those who might read a more open door in RRS 17's wording. The word "becomes" can be interpreted, in some uses, as describing a span of time instead of a moment in time. When reading and listening and trying to understand what others are thinking, this seems to be the heart of it.
But like I spelled out in the earlier post, this is not consistent with the wording of RRS 17's first sentence and the available Cases, Calls and Appeals. "Becomes" refers to a moment and not a span of time.
kim
Q’s as answers: :-)
Is it a port or stb rounding?
Is it a single mark or part of a gate?
In what direction is the rhumbline to the next mark?
All the parameter are the same as the original scenario.
I would not spend too much time on this. it really is a TR call A 6. thrown into this mix.
Kim