Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

How should getting well clear of other boats, promptly to take a penalty be interpreted

Rob Goddard
Nationality: United Kingdom
A boat on the beat touches the windward mark, as it rounds, heading up to take a penalty turn could potentially delay taking a penalty as how far away is correct to take the penalty, bearing away and gybing first, is likely to interfere with competitors still approaching the windward mark, is it therefore acceptable to sail the spreader leg before taking the penalty? 
Created: 21-Jul-13 17:45

Comments

Thomas Armstrong
Nationality: Chile
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Sail up, then take penalty. If the spreader leg is tight upwind, then sail past the spreader mark, without rounding it, and take the penalty away from it.

Created: 21-Jul-13 18:06
Fields Gunsett
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
No.  Rule 44.2 states, “After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe.”. There is no statement in this rule that states “when convenient”.  Sail to windward, complete one tack and one gybe, continue racing.
Created: 21-Jul-13 18:14
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Under 44.2 I think you need to promptly sail up as far as necessary to make sure you won't interfere with other boats reaching on the offset leg while taking your penalty.

I recall seeing sailing instructions that allow a boat to reach past the offset mark before taking her penalty, that seems like a safer option and better for the reaching boats as they're not getting dirty air from a boat to windward taking a penalty. But if it's not allowed in the NOR or SI and you do that I think you're too late and your penalty doesn't count.
Created: 21-Jul-13 18:19
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Umpire
2
According to rule 44.2, she must begin to get well clear of other boats "as soon as possible".  If there's no offset mark, she could reach off the course to get clear; if there is an offset, she could continue sailing upwind after touching the mark, until she is beyond the path other boats will take, or she could run downwind below that leg, to get well clear.  And of course if she's at the end of the fleet or there's a gap behind her, she can just spin wherever she likes.  Unless the offset mark is only a boatlength or so from the windward mark, I wouldn't think she can delay her penalty until after that mark.  Sometimes sailing instructions modify rule 44.2 to say that penalties for fouls just before or at the windward mark can be taken after the boat rounds the offset mark, but that's not very common, in my experience.
Created: 21-Jul-13 18:21
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
I do not understand "heading up to take a penalty turn could potentially delay taking a penalty."
If there were an obstruction above the course from windward mark to offset mark, such as a beach, preventing heading up to take a penalty turn (and the "peloton" preventing below) there is no rule requiring a boat to stop sailing around the offset mark to find room for a penalty turn.
"As soon as possible" would be after the offset mark.
Created: 21-Jul-13 18:35
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
I agree with Phil. You must get well clear as soon after the incident as possible, and you must start your penalty turns promptly after getting well clear. 

Determining when a boat is "well clear" is, to some degree, a judgment call by the boat.

And on the other hand, if the boat is alone at the mark she's already well clear and can spin around the mark to complete her penalty if she wishes.
Created: 21-Jul-13 18:40
John Thorne
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
If the course to the offset mark is a tight reach, it would be better (if not mandatory) to  take the penalty by bearing off, jibing then tacking (twice if required).
Created: 21-Jul-13 19:35
Rob Goddard
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
In reply to Philip Hubbell, frequently saying to windward is difficult as you end up taking other boats accidentally with you, so can’t start spinning until you have untangled yourself from them, so while it may seem the fastest way to start taking a turn, that maybe so only in the absence of other boats.
Created: 21-Jul-13 19:53
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Rob, if you have to you can tack onto port after hitting the mark and sail up above the starboard layline. Nobody's going to follow you up there. Just need to remember that that tack doesn't count toward your penalty turn, you still owe a tack and a gybe after you're well clear.
Created: 21-Jul-13 20:31
Kelli Farrar
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
0
I was involved in an incident where the boat to leeward of me hit the mark, I commented and then he proceeded to use his leeward rights to sail me right up off the course with him smugly claiming he could do this! He was claiming to just be trying to get clear of other boats... not ME! and he still had rights! I avoided the contact but ended up losing many places as a result of his vindictive behaviour. How should I have dealt with this? Protest for unsportsmanlike conduct? I did not. 
Created: 21-Jul-13 21:32
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Kelli, I'd say that the other boat was "taking a penalty" from the time that he started to sail well clear (he was then acting as required by 44.2). So 21.2 made you the ROW boat and you could have protested him at the time for failing to keep clear.

If you thought his behavior was "vindictive" you could have added rule 2 (or the PC could have added it in the hearing) and/or you could report him for misconduct. Especially if you think he knew that you were ROW but counted on you not knowing it.
Created: 21-Jul-13 21:42
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim re: “ I'd say that the other boat was "taking a penalty" from the time that he started to sail well clear”

I disagree.  The way 44.2 is worded, I think it is clear that a boat is not taking a penalty while she is sailing clear. (Emphasis added)

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes […] Penalty by ….”
Created: 21-Jul-13 22:14
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Angel, yes, on closer reading I agree. But seems to me the boat is obligated to sail well clear of all other boats, so what is his obligation to Kelli?
Created: 21-Jul-13 22:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim re: “… seems to me the boat is obligated to sail well clear of all other boats, so what is his obligation to Kelli?”

A boat is not “obligated” to take a penalty on the water.  A boat “may” take a 1 or 2 turns penalty.  If Appx V is avail or T, she might take a post-race penalty. If not, she might retire. 

Until a boat starts to execute her turns (IF she has chosen to do so), she retains her rights and obligations under the rules.  

If a boat is protested, does turns but at the hearing it is determined that she did not get clear “as soon as possible”, the PC may decide that she did not meet the obligations of 44.2 and if she was found to have broken a rule and is not exonerated, she shall be DSQ’d. 

At a typical windward mark, there are a couple rules that could apply to leeward that could limit her course based on “a proper course” (hers or the other boat’s). For instance, Rule 17 might apply, as well as 18.2(c)(2).  

Windward can slow by luffing or easing sails, let leeward pass and then sail her race. 
Created: 21-Jul-14 01:19
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Tim, Kelli,

The boat's obligation, once she decides to take a penalty is to get well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible.  While she is doing this, the right-of-way, room, and mark-room rules apply until she begins to take her penalty by changing course so as to make the required number of turns, at which time she becomes required to keep clear of other boats in accordance with rule 21.2.

Had there been plenty of space between the marks and no boats to leeward, the offending boat should have borne away and gybed into her turns, but if that was not possible she was entitled to stand on to windward.

As long as the time she spent controlling Kelli from the leeward position was no longer than any other course to get well clear, she was entitled to do that.  There's certainly nothing unsportsmanlike about a right of way boat not breaking any rule.

More generally, it's pretty easy to envisage a situation with a short offset leg and a crowded fleet, with boats overlapped to windward, outside the fending boat, and port tackers to leeward of her (who she must not interfere with (rule 23.2).  It may take her some considerable time to break clear from the safe leeward position,  to ease sheets and allow the first windward boat to draw clear ahead may just put her overlapped to leeward of the next boat back, and if it would be quicker for her to continue, take the mark-room she is entitled to at the offset then gybe into her turns, she is entitled to do that.
Created: 21-Jul-14 01:51
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
John, I am not keen on your words "once she decides to take a penalty is to get well clear."
In the context of previous comments I understand your meaning, but it is incorrect.
The rule requires "getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible."
This means the boat that hit the mark shall immediately be actively seeking a way to get clear.
If she decides somewhat later that she ought to take a penalty, she is in violation and may have to retire or take an additional two turns penalty.
Created: 21-Jul-14 02:10
Al Sargent
0
To make a couple of assumptions:

  • This is fleet racing, not team or match racing.
  • There are boats close behind. (Otherwise, there's no need to get clear -- just spin.)

A definition of "well clear" is needed. There are two possible definitions I see:

1) Does "well clear" mean just being out of any reasonable path of other boats (say, 20 degrees above or below rhumbline to the offset mark), even if you give them bad wind while spinning? 

2) Or does "well clear" mean that you're both out the path of other boats AND you're not giving them bad air?

In one local fleet (Vanguard 15s) our assumption is that "well clear" is the second definition: not in the path, and not giving bad air.  

And because V15s can quickly plane on an offset leg, the most "prompt" way (as measured by time, not distance) to get "well clear" is to sail past the offset mark a couple of boatlengths, then do your penalty turn(s) there, then continue on during the downwind leg.

By doing so, a V15 that hits the weather mark doesn't set off a major wind shadow that will unfairly slow down boats behind them. (Hence the assumption of fleet racing; if team racing, spin just to windward of your opposing team members and slow them down.)

This logic applies to a lot of planing boats (Lasers, 505s, etc.) but not necessarily for displacement boats

But again, it comes down to the definition of "well clear". Any guidance from others would be welcome.
Created: 21-Jul-14 02:12
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Al re: “well clear”, I seem to recall a Case/Appeal which involved a boat doing 1 turn, realizing that she didn’t have time to do the 2nd due to on-coming traffic … sailing further and doing the 2nd turn. (but I can’t seem find it). 

If someone can help find it, I’d appreciate the help. 

To me, “well clear” is a proof-in-the-pudding thing.  If a boat can execute her turn(s) without other boats, who are sailing a proper course, taking avoiding action … then she is “well clear” enough. 
Created: 21-Jul-14 11:52
P
Paul Evenden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
I have used the following statement in SI's that helps clarify that situation:
13.1             In RRS 44.2 insert after the first sentence: “However, if an offset mark is set, a boat may delay taking a penalty for an incident in the zone around the windward mark or on the leg between the windward mark and the offset, until she has passed the offset mark.

Seemed to work well. 
Created: 21-Jul-14 19:41
John Porter
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Club Race Officer
1
I generally expand on Paul's language to make it a little closer to the rule. 

RRS 44.2 is changed to add after the first sentence: “However,  if Mark 1a (offset) is set, a boat may take a penalty for an incident in the zone around Mark 1 or on the leg between Mark 1 and Mark 1a, as soon as possible after leaving the zone around Mark 1a.” This changes RRS 44.2. 
Created: 21-Jul-19 21:01
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