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Appraching an upwind finish in light winds. Yellow, on port-tack is ahead of Blue and can make her finish clear in front of Blue by ointing into the wind. Be it all at very slow speed in extreme light wind, she points up and gets her finish signal without touching the finish mark. (position 3) Next Yellow is floatng, but is aware that a fellow competitor Blue is approaching on starboard tack. Other boats (not in the drawing) on port tack are also appraoching and Yellow decides to clear the line ASAP for Blue not hindering her on her fair course to the finish. While doing so (20 meter classice barger) she touches/scrapes the mark with her stern. Blue calls out that Yellow made a foul, observing her touching the mark after her clear finsih signal more than 15 seceonds before.
Question - did Yellow break a rule touching the mark after being finished by the comite boat? All in an attempt to not disfavour or block Blue from a straight finish?
Inputs and comments on rules applicable appreciated.
Yes. She fouled. Rule 31 is clear (the last clause): TOUCHING A MARK While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.
A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.
Gus .. Case 127 is informative here as well for a general sense of when a boat is no longer racing. This case was the first to introduce the idea of "influence" regarding def: racing's "...and clears the finishing line and marks .." and it also goes into detail what it means to "clear the finishing line".
As drawn, this is pretty straight forward as she has not yet cleared the line at 4. Had she cleared the line fully and then hit the mark while remaining that close to it, Case 127 would imply that she was so close to the mark that it would still be influencing her .. therefore she would still be racing when it is touched.
We also have RRS 23.1
23.1. If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.
Because Yellow was still racing until she cleared the line and then until she is away from the mark's influence, RRS 23.1 does not apply to her. Yellow is clear ahead of Blue and should have used those rights to clear the line and marks.
We've had a somewhat similar situation in light winds with strong foul tide and other boats close but clear behind. We finished by breaking the line. The simplest way to clear the line would simply be to stop sailing and allow the tide to take us backwards clear of the line; all the other boats behind are then overtaking, it's their problem - but it's not very fair to them. But as we're racing until we clear the line, we're not allowed to use the engine to clear the line by going forwards. So what's best?
I'll add that Yellow does not solely foul "in an attempt to not disfavour or block Blue from a straight finish". Yellow is required to keep clear of Blue here by one or more of RRS 10, 13, 21.3, or 23 (but it's not 23). This requirement continues until she becomes close-hauled on Starboard at position 4, at which time she has touched the mark.
Upshot is that a boat finishing should include "clearing the finishing line and marks" as part of her calculus in order to ensure she keeps her score.
Niko .. you are correct! Yellow keeps clear and is on a close-hauled course well clear ahead of Blue. Blue is the KC boat even though Yellow touches the mark.
So now here's the (mark) rub (pun intended) .. :-P
Finish (emphasis added)
A boat finishes when, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2, (b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or; (c) continues to sail the course. After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely. The sailing instructions may change the direction in which boats are required to cross the finishing line to finish.
OK .. assuming that Scoring Penalty (44.3) is not specified by the NOR/SI and Yellow commences to take a 1-turn penalty .. she has not finished either.
(Note: If SP's are specified, def: finish (a) cannot apply because SP's replace 44.2. Under SP's, Yellow has finished whether or not she takes an SP).
So .. while Yellow sails to get clear to start her 1-turn penalty, the Part 2 Section A-C rules apply to her .. she can use her ROW to get well clear. As soon as she starts her turns and is "taking her penalty" and then RRS 21.2 applies and she is the keep clear boat until the turn is complete. (Note: 21.1 only applies at starting-lines)
Note that "getting well clear" is not part of taking the penalty, but rather something that precedes it.. RRS 44.2 is clear on that.
44.2. One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns
We've had a somewhat similar situation in light winds with strong foul tide and other boats close but clear behind. We finished by breaking the line. The simplest way to clear the line would simply be to stop sailing and allow the tide to take us backwards clear of the line; all the other boats behind are then overtaking. But as we're racing until we clear the line, we're not allowed to use the engine to clear the line by going forwards. So what's best?
If you are drifting backwards, are the other boats leeward?, and/or have you passed head-to-wind and are subject to RRS 13. If the finish is upwind it's not likely correct to say that they are simply over-taking, though a diagram would help as I might be misunderstanding. In any case, as Ang says, if you follow the rules, then you will also be following one of the possible courses others expect you to take, and that will make it fair to them.
Thanks for all inputs - This situation happened last weekend - with extreme large 20 meter slow classic bargers in light wind with 160m2 sail. I know that we (Yellow) should stay clear of the mark until the finish line is cleared astern. However, floating with Blue coming behind us and other boats on port tack also appraching the finish we considered it unfair to interfere with 2-3 boats still racing for a position and turned leeward early scrping the mark with our stern. (23.1. If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing). Our finish signal had been given 10-15 sec's before, but we were crawling forward..... That is why we did it and it was (afterwards) appreciated by Blue who would have clearly lost 2 places with us stuck on his course line..... Disputable whether we did favour Blue and disfavoured the other boats ....
Stll ... I never want to interfere with unneccesary with other competitors or boats in another class or race....
A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marksor retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.
You had not cleared the finish line and marks. Did you do your penalty turn?
EDIT : Sorry Angelo, just read your comment. Guess I should read all the comments before adding my 2 cents.
TOUCHING A MARK
While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.
Racing
As drawn, this is pretty straight forward as she has not yet cleared the line at 4. Had she cleared the line fully and then hit the mark while remaining that close to it, Case 127 would imply that she was so close to the mark that it would still be influencing her .. therefore she would still be racing when it is touched.
We also have RRS 23.1
Because Yellow was still racing until she cleared the line and then until she is away from the mark's influence, RRS 23.1 does not apply to her. Yellow is clear ahead of Blue and should have used those rights to clear the line and marks.
I'll add that Yellow does not solely foul "in an attempt to not disfavour or block Blue from a straight finish". Yellow is required to keep clear of Blue here by one or more of RRS 10, 13, 21.3,
or 23 (but it's not 23). This requirement continues until she becomes close-hauled on Starboard at position 4, at which time she has touched the mark.Upshot is that a boat finishing should include "clearing the finishing line and marks" as part of her calculus in order to ensure she keeps her score.
I disagree. It's completely fair to them as long as you sail by the rules.
So now here's the (mark) rub (pun intended) .. :-P
OK .. assuming that Scoring Penalty (44.3) is not specified by the NOR/SI and Yellow commences to take a 1-turn penalty .. she has not finished either.
(Note: If SP's are specified, def: finish (a) cannot apply because SP's replace 44.2. Under SP's, Yellow has finished whether or not she takes an SP).
So .. while Yellow sails to get clear to start her 1-turn penalty, the Part 2 Section A-C rules apply to her .. she can use her ROW to get well clear. As soon as she starts her turns and is "taking her penalty" and then RRS 21.2 applies and she is the keep clear boat until the turn is complete. (Note: 21.1 only applies at starting-lines)
Note that "getting well clear" is not part of taking the penalty, but rather something that precedes it.. RRS 44.2 is clear on that.
Ang
If you are drifting backwards, are the other boats leeward?, and/or have you passed head-to-wind and are subject to RRS 13. If the finish is upwind it's not likely correct to say that they are simply over-taking, though a diagram would help as I might be misunderstanding. In any case, as Ang says, if you follow the rules, then you will also be following one of the possible courses others expect you to take, and that will make it fair to them.
I know that we (Yellow) should stay clear of the mark until the finish line is cleared astern. However, floating with Blue coming behind us and other boats on port tack also appraching the finish we considered it unfair to interfere with 2-3 boats still racing for a position and turned leeward early scrping the mark with our stern. (23.1. If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing). Our finish signal had been given 10-15 sec's before, but we were crawling forward..... That is why we did it and it was (afterwards) appreciated by Blue who would have clearly lost 2 places with us stuck on his course line..... Disputable whether we did favour Blue and disfavoured the other boats ....
Stll ... I never want to interfere with unneccesary with other competitors or boats in another class or race....
(Def) Racing
You had not cleared the finish line and marks. Did you do your penalty turn?
EDIT : Sorry Angelo, just read your comment. Guess I should read all the comments before adding my 2 cents.